HAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT

ohh no you didn'ttttttt

I read a blog post today by a Christian dissing the "tax the rich" policies on the grounds that is equates to immoral "stealing." 

It is difficult for me to see this argument as valid because I feel it is ignoring one of the biggest immoralities that exists in our world - and that is that our prosperity in the Western world is FOUNDED upon the stealing, raping and pillaging of the rest of the world. We do not have the money we do simply out of untarnished hard work, we have it as a result of being privy to conditions that are conducive to us making more and more money that were set up in prior generations through abuse, genocide and colonialism. 

The contention that "taxing the rich" is an immoral act, to me, is absurdly vile and ignorant.

here is the post

watch to the end.

fuck you, God

“If I cave in, if I fold up because of the emotional obstacles that are in front of me, I'm useless. There is no point in me being there in the first place. And I think if you go to places where people are experiencing these kinds of tragedies with a camera, you have a responsibility.  The value of it is to make an appeal to the rest of the world, to create an impetus where change is possible through public opinion.  Public opinion is created through awareness.  My job is to help create the awareness.”

 - James Nachtwey at an orphanage for 'The Incurables' in Romania

Romania, 1990

James Nachtwey (born 1948)

Most of James Nachtwey’s photography has a sort of “shock” value and his work in Romania is no different.

This haunting image bears witness to an atrocity so great that words alone could never do it justice. Much like Edvard Munch’s painting, The Scream (1893), Romania 1990 pulls you in and has you asking why.

In 1965, Nicolae Ceausescu declared abortion illegal for any woman under 45 who had not yet produced four children. Tens of thousands of infants were abandoned and left in the care of the state after Ceausescu’s reign ended and were either placed in orphanages, psychiatric hospitals, or, for the ones who were disabled, in “institutions for the irrecoverable.”  The conditions were deplorable; the children were malnourished, forced to share cribs and baths, and if they became agitated, they were tethered to their cribs (Hunt, 1 1990). 

Time Magazine released Nachtwey’s photo essay “Romania’s Lost Children,” which included Romania, 1990, six months after Nicolae Ceausescu’s rule over Communist Romania ended.

Romania, 1990 captures a glimpse of the unthinkable horror in which the children who inhabited these “institutions” lived. The viewer is instantly jolted into a starling new reality.  Whether we like it or not, Nachtwey makes us feel intimately involved with the subject and is able to shock or shame us into action.

It's really remarkable how much life can change. I havent posted much on here in a long time because it's been over a year since I had reliable internet, and I just wasn't interested. 

My present-day brain is just really amazed I ever struggled with de-conversion so much. The way I think and believe (or don't believe) is so matter-of-fact and comfortable to me. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. We will die and rot and the...end. That's what I believe and there is no fear when I say it. 

I still have to hide it from my immediate family though. Just to be respectful I think. It's kind of astounding how I could live before under the guise of a Christian, but still not actually live the Christian lifestyle - and I was waaaay more accepted. when I was in college, I still was "christian" but not a Christian in my day-to-day life. Yet, I felt accepted with other Christians because they never cared to really find out about me beyond that "hey did you like the worship? Are you coming with us to Denny's?" type shit

And now that I am a non-believer, it's like Christians don't know what to do with me - can they talk to me like normal? If they don't try to address my nonbelief on a regular basis are they ignoring possible opportunities from God to live their faith? Who the fuck knows. 

I love this - found here

God…what if I need my sleep?

I’m outside Christianity; but I still have numerous Christian acquaintances who post situations and stories on their blogs, facebook, e-mails, etc. At times, the innate desire to give God credit is puzzling.

One friend noted she was having trouble sleeping, woke up in the middle of the night and unable to go back to sleep—prayed for her son in the military. He contacted her later and mentioned he was involved in an undisclosed incident earlier that day.

Other Christians chimed in how it was God working—how it was God who woke her up so she could pray for her son. How neat and wonderful it was…and…

I’m thinking, “What the heck? God woke you up so you could ask God a favor, so God could do it? Why didn’t God just do it? Why did He have to wake you up first?”

To them—a miracle; to me—inanity.

"If you don’t know enough about your God-concept to explain why such a God wouldn’t cure cancer in a five-year-old, don’t tell me how it writes books, or provides you a parking space, or gave your child the winning shot in the J.V. basketball game."

- from post here

faith healing

Click Here  to read an interesting article comparing the punishments of  non-believer parents whose children die as a result of regligence, and and religious parents whose failed faith healing practices lead to their children's deaths.

I SERIOUSLY LOVE THIS --

GREAT STUFF

HAHAHAHAHA I found this on de-conversion.com

Jesus loves you. But he has a messiah complex.
Jesus loves you. But then again he is under contract.
Jesus loves you! But he is high maintenance.
Jesus loves you! But it’s complicated.
Jesus loves you! Apparently it runs in the family.
Jesus loves you! But he seriously needs to update his status.
Jesus Loves You! But I hear he’s polyamorous.
Jesus Loves You! But does he LIKE you???
Jesus Loves You! But he ADORES Madonna!!
Jesus Loves You! But his handlers can be quite difficult.
Jesus Loves You! But I hear he’s clingy.
Jesus Loves You! But he may be missing a Y chromosome
Jesus Loves You! But I hear he is sick and in prison.
Jesus Loves You! And with your tax-deductible seed gift…
Jesus Loves You! But for a limited time only; while supplies last.
Jesus Loves You! But I’ve heard rumors…
Jesus Loves You! Or it might just be gas.
Jesus Loves You! He doesn’t mind the scars one bit.
Jesus Loves You! But he was caught up in that whole prisoner abuse scandal.
Jesus Loves You! He’s the Real Thing™ Now w/ convenient eco-friendly Emergent Church® twist-off cap.
Jesus Loves You! But he may be a little too old for you.
Jesus Loves You! For the Bible tells him to.
Jesus Loves You! But he does play favorites.
Jesus Loves You! Act now & we will automatically enroll you in Spiritual Fruit of the Month Club. Collect them all! Operators standing by.
Jesus Loves You! Shocking new book for children, banned in 12 states — “Jesus has Two Daddies, One mommy and an Invisible Friend!”
Jesus Loves You! Now Healthy Choice Jesus–sugar-free, low-carb, and no trans-fats. New formula–same savior taste!
Jesus Loves You! But now what???

Jesus Loves You***
(***some restrictions apply)
Jesus loves you! But he’s been dead for over 2,000 years, and that is really gross.
Jesus loves you. But he wants to you be his bride…. even if you’re male.
Jesus loves you! But His standards are ridiculously low.
Jesus loves you, no matter what! Which is why you need to do what I tell you.
Jesus loves you! And is watching you in the shower.
Jesus loves you! But (spoiler alert!) he dies in the end.
Jesus loves you. But if you don’t love him back, to hell with you.
Jesus loves you! Hopefully, you’re into sado-masochism.


HAHAHA

evangelical family drammaaa

Okay so here is the deal with my family.

My sister was married for 9 years and divorced a couple years ago (brought shame to my parents I am sure)
and she has found love again and just got engaged last week! I'm so happy for her!

But here's the nut:
My parents found out that she is having pre-marital sex with her fiance and so they are threatening not to attend her upcoming wedding. It is tearing my family apart and I am so sick of it. They repeatedly tell her "it's not the sin that is making us angry, it's your inability to repent." So until she repents, they will not be going to her wedding.
THE THING IS though, that I know they will end up going to the wedding in the end. WHY? Because they do not want our other relatives and my sister's friends to look at them badly for not attending their own daughter's wedding. It's all about them. Why do so many Christians seem to be under the delusion that other people care so much about how they live?? No one really cares.

My sister said she talked on the phone with my parents and her fiance the other night about it and all she could say was "Mom is evil. She said the most evil and awful things about/to me, in front of my fiance."

My good Christian parents do not care about being hurtful, rude, damaging, controlling - but their having a fuckfit over my 32 year old sister making the choice to have sex with a man she loves. It's stupid as shit.

I'll update you guys on what happens.

FINALEMENTE.

FINALLY AFTER OVER A YEAR WITHOUT INTERNET...I HAVE INTERNET!!! I can't promise for sure that I will post a lot, but at least I can read the blogs again!

UPDATE on me:

I still have my same job
I now live in San Francisco and love it
I am not a Christian

yaya!

Fuck God

God is punishing me? I fucking hate you, God. Greedy bastard ruin the lives of us who turn away from your fucked up ass. That's how I feel.


-- Post From My iPhone

My secret

I'm back! I am finding it is getting more difficult to be "under the radar" lately regarding my unbelief. I live about 30 minutes away from my über Christian parents and brother and see them often and it is growing increasingly difficult for me to keep up this facade. They know I don't go to church, but every time they see me, my mom says I need fellowship and all that bullshit...and my brother wants me to go to his church and I just can't find an excuse not to go.

I feel like I am trying to protect them by keeping my deconversion a secret, but I think I am moreso trying to protect myself. I deconverted 2 years ago and still I am struggling to keep all this a secret. I don't know what the final solution will be...I don't know if I will have to keep pretending until they all die, or if a month from now I will just explode and come clean.

Another hard thing is that I am trying to keep my deconversion a secret from a friend who recently came back into my life. She had a very sordid past (drug addiction, stripping, acting in porn, abuse, etc) and she recently turned her life completely around when she got pregnant, and now her faith is what is keeping her from returning to her dangerous and abusive past. She is in a fragile time right now and I worry that news of my unbelief could rattle her because I am someone she relies on.

It's kind of a helpless feeling. I cannot and will not lie to myself and say that I believe in order to make relations with my family and friends easier, but it is so hard to know that my secret would devastate them and most likely wedge a huge wall between us. I'd like to think that more time and planning would help me have the courage to be honest with them, but I'm pretty confident that that will not happen. So I guess I will just have to wait and see if this will be something I hold in until my parents die, or if I will snap tomorrow and just show everyone who the real me is.

--posted from my iPhone

Over McCain's Dead Body!

I am moving over for a moment into politics. I am now getting truly afraid of McCain/Palin being elected. The Vice Presidential debate helped cement my suspicions of Palin as an idiotic, unstable, shell of a human who is willing to undertake any actions (however risky) in order to perpetuate her own megalomanical self-conscious. I believe that she believes in herself. She believes in the image she thinks she is perpetuating, and she will not rule out any actions in order to preserve this image. She panders to any group who puts her on the podium, and she doesn't ever see that she comes across as an idiot and that she conspiculously ignores the obvious needs of her family in order to keep her frame in the spotlight. I think she is dangerous.

I really wonder - what if we find ourselves in another political situation so fragile as the Cuban Missle crisis? Would McCain (or Palin,) be able to so delicately negotiate their way around a dictator like Khrushchev? Especially when impending nuclear doom is on the line? Or would they decide to maintain this "Maverick" identity by not negotiating, and just using military might? It has been shown that if we had attacked Cuba, we would have most likely provoked nuclear war.

Palin is a JOKE. She was chosen in order to throw a wrench into the machine of political assumptions and mesmerize republican men into taking their hard-ons to the voting booth.

I am all for female politicians. I believe a woman can be a politician and feminine. But I am appalled and offended at a woman who is obviously underqualified, under-savvy, and so blantantly wags her sexiness around in order to "get through" the election season and into the White House. She could look the same, have the same accent but be smart, innovative, compassionate, clever and strong.

People keep saying "She's not running for President though, it's not about her" Well, she is running for Vice President, which is not a figurehead. The Bush Administration is an example of the power and influence a Vice President can have. Presiding over the Senate is not a benign position either.

All in all, I hope America isn't duped by this obvious ploy to trick us into voting for mcCain. I don't find that much comfort in Obama himself, but I do trust his judgement a little more in who he will choose for his Cabinet and advisors. But all in all, between the two wars and this economic bailout, we are trillions of dollars in debt - and I doubt that much of anything will change, because there is no money to pay for it.


Also - here is another critique of the McCain/Palin concept of the War on Terror (in which their solution is simply to 'defeat it')

From "Daily Dish":

The comedian Gary Shandling, of all people, synthesized the connection between our current economic crisis and 9/11 and the Iraq War in a way I have not heard:

On 9/11, Al Qaeda had no expectation of a traditional military victory against the United States. The point of the attack was economic -- to draw the U.S. into expensive and protracted foreign wars that would deplete our resources and destabilize our government. By invading Iraq, George Bush became the happy idiot to assist Al Qaeda in this goal. Now, Sarah Palin and John McCain take the leaders of Al Qaeda at their word when they say Iraq is the major front in the war on terror.

Neither consider the possibility that Al Qaeda wants Iraq to be the major front because it furthers their goal of weakening the U.S. while inflicting minimal damage on their operations.
Seven years after 9/11, we are seeing Al Qaeda's long-term goal being realized: the destabilization and economic collapse of the United States. Even as it's happening, the people who supported it all along want to continue facilitating our own long-term disintegration by clinging to simplistic concepts of traditional military victory and defeat. In this sense, they are possibly the most myopic, least strategic thinkers in the history of this nation.

As Gary Shandling said, with this approach, our only hope of killing Osama Bin Laden is that he'll laugh himself to death.

Religulous!

I saw Religulous last night - I really liked it! And the theater was packed! (surprisingly) There was nothing new (information-wise) for me to learn, but it was interesting to see someone really confront religious people with the ridiculousness of their beliefs. It was hilarious too! Also, at the end, there is this colossal, loud, thundering, terroristic image-laced montage where Bill declares his conclusion and calls for all the de-converted, or non-religious to come out and be heard. In some weird way, it was probably the first time I've really felt pride in my non-belief. I felt empowered, as opposed to shunned. I actually got chills :)

Bill did this movie with director Larry Charles (Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld, Borat). Awesome combo with Maher.

For me, I would have liked a lot more detail on biblical inconsistencies, more tough interrogations, etc. Maybe a 10-part series on PBS! But all-in-all, I am happy to support Maher. Even though he clearly thought the people he interviewed were delusional, he delivered his scathing criticism with smiles and jokes.

If you don't already listen to Bill's podcast, YOU MUST!!!!

Go on itunes and search podcasts for "Real Time with Bill Maher" - it is my favorite thing to listen to!

well, time to seize the day. Have a great one!

religulous!!!

RELIGULOUS COMES OUT TOMORROW!!!!!!

I am going to go see it at 7pm. I'm not expecting to really learn anything new or be exposed to anything I haven't encountered in the de-conversion process, but I think it will be hilarious! Bill Maher and Larry Charles (director of Curb Your Enthusiasm) are sure to have made a good film

Halloween is for the Devil

I work with a lot of Christians. Part of our work is marketing. The other day I was in a meeting about a Halloween-themed marketing event, when one of the Christian ladies refused to allow us to use images of witches or skeletons. "I would never respond to anything with a witch on it," she said. So we're using pumpkins instead.

It's so funny how people will think images of witches and ghouls are evil, yet they'll not bat an eye to a bloody Civil War in the Congo.

It reminds me of when I was in high school and my mom found some stickers I had with skulls on them. "Skeletons are an invitation for the Devil to work!" She told me. Then she made the throw them away.

R.I.P. Nicole

I found out today that a girl I used to work with has died. Not just died, she was killed in an ambush in Afghanistan a few weeks ago. We worked together at an NGO in Washington, DC - I was a timid intern with an overbearing boss, and she was a kind-hearted full-timer who always shot me a smile, sat next to me in meetings, just was a friendly voice and face every day when I was at the office. I looked up to her. I was a mere intern and she was an adult doing the work that I knew I was destined to do, still am destined to do. But she was killed, brutally, callously a few weeks ago.

Until now, I had never known anyone killed by rebels. I've met Rwanda survivors, former torture survivors, child soldiers, etc. But known none on a more personal basis until now, and none who were extinguished in the very profession that I seek.

Nicole Dial was working for the International Rescue Committee when her clearly marked IRC vehicle was brutally fired upon. She, and three of her colleagues were killed. They were in the country to serve the victims, to serve peace and they were picked off like nothing.

I imagine her smile, her upbeat personality. She was excited to be working this new job in a new place, she was curious about the people she would meet, work with, encounter. And then all of the sudden that was shattered. Blood, death, dead. Her monumental aspirations for peace and unending devotion to human reconciliation and goodness are now buried with her.

I find myself more afraid to work abroad. I find myself trying to make excuses to stay in America and work in the relative safety of california. I am torn between wanting to risk everything for peace and justice, and wanting to preserve my small shell of a self, have children, live safely and die an old woman playing bocce in the park.

Right now I am mourning and afraid and confused and ashamed. I want to work for peace, but I do fear an early death. I am inspired by Nicole. She braved such a dangerous job with a smile on her face. I am sure there were moments of fear, but she worked in the midst of it. And I must do that too.

You can read about those who died in this terrible ambush, and even donate in their remembrance if you feel so inclined.

http://www.theirc.org/where/afghanistan/in-memoriam.html

RELIGULOUS

Have you heard of Bill Maher's new movie, Religulous?

I can't wait to see it! It should be released (probably fairly limited) on October 3

Kudos to Lions Gate for allowing this movie to be released - maybe they are banking on a lot of religious ppl to watch it out of curiosity and to get pissed off.

http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/

Improbability of God

Here is an article I just read by Dawkins - I hadn't read it before - it's a great read with a nice, concise deconstruction of why Evolution is believable. Please read!

The Improbability of God
by Richard Dawkins

Much of what people do is done in the name of God. Irishmen blow each other up in his name. Arabs blow themselves up in his name. Imams and ayatollahs oppress women in his name. Celibate popes and priests mess up people's sex lives in his name. Jewish shohets cut live animals' throats in his name. The achievements of religion in past history -- bloody crusades, torturing inquisitions, mass-murdering conquistadors, culture-destroying missionaries, legally enforced resistance to each new piece of scientific truth until the last possible moment -- are even more impressive. And what has it all been in aid of? I believe it is becoming increasingly clear that the answer is absolutely nothing at all. There is no reason for believing that any sort of gods exist and quite good reason for believing that they do not exist and never have. It has all been a gigantic waste of time and a waste of life. It would be a joke of cosmic proportions if it weren't so tragic.

Why do people believe in God? For most people the answer is still some version of the ancient Argument from Design. We look about us at the beauty and intricacy of the world -- at the aerodynamic sweep of a swallow's wing, at the delicacy of flowers and of the butterflies that fertilize them, through a microscope at the teeming life in every drop of pond water, through a telescope at the crown of a giant redwood tree. We reflect on the electronic complexity and optical perfection of our own eyes that do the looking. If we have any imagination, these things drive us to a sense of awe and reverence. Moreover, we cannot fail to be struck by the obvious resemblance of living organs to the carefully planned designs of human engineers. The argument was most famously expressed in the watchmaker analogy of the eighteenth-century priest William Paley. Even if you didn't know what a watch was, the obviously designed character of its cogs and springs and of how they mesh together for a purpose would force you to conclude "that the watch must have had a maker: that there must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed it for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use." If this is true of a comparatively simple watch, how much the more so is it true of the eye, ear, kidney, elbow joint, brain? These beautiful, complex, intricate, and obviously purpose-built structures must have had their own designer, their own watchmaker -- God.

So ran Paley's argument, and it is an argument that nearly all thoughtful and sensitive people discover for themselves at some stage in their childhood. Throughout most of history it must have seemed utterly convincing, self-evidently true. And yet, as the result of one of the most astonishing intellectual revolutions in history, we now know that it is wrong, or at least superfluous. We now know that the order and apparent purposefulness of the living world has come about through an entirely different process, a process that works without the need for any designer and one that is a consequence of basically very simple laws of physics. This is the process of evolution by natural selection, discovered by Charles Darwin and, independently, by Alfred Russel Wallace.

What do all objects that look as if they must have had a designer have in common? The answer is statistical improbability. If we find a transparent pebble washed into the shape of a crude lens by the sea, we do not conclude that it must have been designed by an optician: the unaided laws of physics are capable of achieving this result; it is not too improbable to have just "happened." But if we find an elaborate compound lens, carefully corrected against spherical and chromatic aberration, coated against glare, and with "Carl Zeiss" engraved on the rim, we know that it could not have just happened by chance. If you take all the atoms of such a compound lens and throw them together at random under the jostling influence of the ordinary laws of physics in nature, it is theoretically possible that, by sheer luck, the atoms would just happen to fall into the pattern of a Zeiss compound lens, and even that the atoms round the rim should happen to fall in such a way that the name Carl Zeiss is etched out. But the number of other ways in which the atoms could, with equal likelihood, have fallen, is so hugely, vastly, immeasurably greater that we can completely discount the chance hypothesis. Chance is out of the question as an explanation.

This is not a circular argument, by the way. It might seem to be circular because, it could be said, any particular arrangement of atoms is, with hindsight, very improbable. As has been said before, when a ball lands on a particular blade of grass on the golf course, it would be foolish to excl.. "Out of all the billions of blades of grass that it could have fallen on, the ball actually fell on this one. How amazingly, miraculously improbable!" The fallacy here, of course, is that the ball had to land somewhere. We can only stand amazed at the improbability of the actual event if we specify it a priori: for example, if a blindfolded man spins himself round on the tee, hits the ball at random, and achieves a hole in one. That would be truly amazing, because the target destination of the ball is specified in advance.

Of all the trillions of different ways of putting together the atoms of a telescope, only a minority would actually work in some useful way. Only a tiny minority would have Carl Zeiss engraved on them, or, indeed, any recognizable words of any human language. The same goes for the parts of a watch: of all the billions of possible ways of putting them together, only a tiny minority will tell the time or do anything useful. And of course the same goes, a fortiori, for the parts of a living body. Of all the trillions of trillions of ways of putting together the parts of a body, only an infinitesimal minority would live, seek food, eat, and reproduce.True, there are many different ways of being alive -- at least ten million different ways if we count the number of distinct species alive today -- but, however many ways there may be of being alive, it is certain that there are vastly more ways of being dead!

We can safely conclude that living bodies are billions of times too complicated -- too statistically improbable -- to have come into being by sheer chance. How, then, did they come into being? The answer is that chance enters into the story, but not a single, monolithic act of chance. Instead, a whole series of tiny chance steps, each one small enough to be a believable product of its predecessor, occurred one after the other in sequence. These small steps of chance are caused by genetic mutations, random changes -- mistakes really -- in the genetic material. They give rise to changes in the existing bodily structure. Most of these changes are deleterious and lead to death. A minority of them turn out to be slight improvements, leading to increased survival and reproduction. By this process of natural selection, those random changes that turn out to be beneficial eventually spread through the species and become the norm. The stage is now set for the next small change in the evolutionary process. After, say, a thousand of these small changes in series, each change providing the basis for the next, the end result has become, by a process of accumulation, far too complex to have come about in a single act of chance.

For instance, it is theoretically possible for an eye to spring into being, in a single lucky step, from nothing: from bare skin, let's say. It is theoretically possible in the sense that a recipe could be written out in the form of a large number of mutations. If all these mutations happened simultaneously, a complete eye could, indeed, spring from nothing. But although it is theoretically possible, it is in practice inconceivable. The quantity of luck involved is much too large. The "correct" recipe involves changes in a huge number of genes simultaneously. The correct recipe is one particular combination of changes out of trillions of equally probable combinations of chances. We can certainly rule out such a miraculous coincidence. But it is perfectly plausible that the modern eye could have sprung from something almost the same as the modern eye but not quite: a very slightly less elaborate eye. By the same argument, this slightly less elaborate eye sprang from a slightly less elaborate eye still, and so on. If you assume a sufficiently large number of sufficiently small differences between each evolutionary stage and its predecessor, you are bound to be able to derive a full, complex, working eye from bare skin. How many intermediate stages are we allowed to postulate? That depends on how much time we have to play with.Has there been enough time for eyes to evolve by little steps from nothing?

The fossils tell us that life has been evolving on Earth for more than 3,000 million years. It is almost impossible for the human mind to grasp such an immensity of time. We, naturally and mercifully, tend to see our own expected lifetime as a fairly long time, but we can't expect to live even one century. It is 2,000 years since Jesus lived, a time span long enough to blur the distinction between history and myth. Can you imagine a million such periods laid end to end? Suppose we wanted to write the whole history on a single long scroll. If we crammed all of Common Era history into one metre of scroll, how long would the pre-Common Era part of the scroll, back to the start of evolution, be? The answer is that the pre-Common Era part of the scroll would stretch from Milan to Moscow. Think of the implications of this for the quantity of evolutionary change that can be accommodated. All the domestic breeds of dogs -- Pekingeses, poodles, spaniels, Saint Bernards, and Chihuahuas -- have come from wolves in a time span measured in hundreds or at the most thousands of years: no more than two meters along the road from Milan to Moscow. Think of the quantity of change involved in going from a wolf to a Pekingese; now multiply that quantity of change by a million. When you look at it like that, it becomes easy to believe that an eye could have evolved from no eye by small degrees.

It remains necessary to satisfy ourselves that every one of the intermediates on the evolutionary route, say from bare skin to a modern eye, would have been favored by natural selection; would have been an improvement over its predecessor in the sequence or at least would have survived. It is no good proving to ourselves that there is theoretically a chain of almost perceptibly different intermediates leading to an eye if many of those intermediates would have died. It is sometimes argued that the parts of an eye have to be all there together or the eye won't work at all. Half an eye, the argument runs, is no better than no eye at all. You can't fly with half a wing; you can't hear with half an ear. Therefore there can't have been a series of step-by-step intermediates leading up to a modern eye, wing, or ear.

This type of argument is so naive that one can only wonder at the subconscious motives for wanting to believe it. It is obviously not true that half an eye is useless. Cataract sufferers who have had their lenses surgically removed cannot see very well without glasses, but they are still much better off than people with no eyes at all. Without a lens you can't focus a detailed image, but you can avoid bumping into obstacles and you could detect the looming shadow of a predator.

As for the argument that you can't fly with only half a wing, it is disproved by large numbers of very successful gliding animals, including mammals of many different kinds, lizards, frogs, snakes, and squids. Many different kinds of tree-dwelling animals have flaps of skin between their joints that really are fractional wings. If you fall out of a tree, any skin flap or flattening of the body that increases your surface area can save your life. And, however small or large your flaps may be, there must always be a critical height such that, if you fall from a tree of that height, your life would have been saved by just a little bit more surface area. Then, when your descendants have evolved that extra surface area, their lives would be saved by just a bit more still if they fell from trees of a slightly greater height. And so on by insensibly graded steps until, hundreds of generations later, we arrive at full wings.

Eyes and wings cannot spring into existence in a single step. That would be like having the almost infinite luck to hit upon the combination number that opens a large bank vault. But if you spun the dials of the lock at random, and every time you got a little bit closer to the lucky number the vault door creaked open another chink, you would soon have the door open! Essentially, that is the secret of how evolution by natural selection achieves what once seemed impossible. Things that cannot plausibly be derived from very different predecessors can plausibly be derived from only slightly different predecessors. Provided only that there is a sufficiently long series of such slightly different predecessors, you can derive anything from anything else.

Evolution, then, is theoretically capable of doing the job that, once upon a time, seemed to be the prerogative of God. But is there any evidence that evolution actually has happened? The answer is yes; the evidence is overwhelming. Millions of fossils are found in exactly the places and at exactly the depths that we should expect if evolution had happened. Not a single fossil has ever been found in any place where the evolution theory would not have expected it, although this could very easily have happened: a fossil mammal in rocks so old that fishes have not yet arrived, for instance, would be enough to disprove the evolution theory.

The patterns of distribution of living animals and plants on the continents and islands of the world is exactly what would be expected if they had evolved from common ancestors by slow, gradual degrees. The patterns of resemblance among animals and plants is exactly what we should expect if some were close cousins, and others more distant cousins to each other. The fact that the genetic code is the same in all living creatures overwhelmingly suggests that all are descended from one single ancestor. The evidence for evolution is so compelling that the only way to save the creation theory is to assume that God deliberately planted enormous quantities of evidence to make it look as if evolution had happened. In other words, the fossils, the geographical distribution of animals, and so on, are all one gigantic confidence trick. Does anybody want to worship a God capable of such trickery? It is surely far more reverent, as well as more scientifically sensible, to take the evidence at face value. All living creatures are cousins of one another, descended from one remote ancestor that lived more than 3,000 million years ago.

The Argument from Design, then, has been destroyed as a reason for believing in a God. Are there any other arguments? Some people believe in God because of what appears to them to be an inner revelation. Such revelations are not always edifying but they undoubtedly feel real to the individual concerned. Many inhabitants of lunatic asylums have an unshakable inner faith that they are Napoleon or, indeed, God himself. There is no doubting the power of such convictions for those that have them, but this is no reason for the rest of us to believe them. Indeed, since such beliefs are mutually contradictory, we can't believe them all.

There is a little more that needs to be said. Evolution by natural selection explains a lot, but it couldn't start from nothing. It couldn't have started until there was some kind of rudimentary reproduction and heredity. Modern heredity is based on the DNA code, which is itself too complicated to have sprung spontaneously into being by a single act of chance. This seems to mean that there must have been some earlier hereditary system, now disappeared, which was simple enough to have arisen by chance and the laws of chemistry and which provided the medium in which a primitive form of cumulative natural selection could get started. DNA was a later product of this earlier cumulative selection. Before this original kind of natural selection, there was a period when complex chemical compounds were built up from simpler ones and before that a period when the chemical elements were built up from simpler elements, following the well-understood laws of physics. Before that, everything was ultimately built up from pure hydrogen in the immediate aftermath of the big bang, which initiated the universe.

There is a temptation to argue that, although God may not be needed to explain the evolution of complex order once the universe, with its fundamental laws of physics, had begun, we do need a God to explain the origin of all things. This idea doesn't leave God with very much to do: just set off the big bang, then sit back and wait for everything to happen. The physical chemist Peter Atkins, in his beautifully written book The Creation, postulates a lazy God who strove to do as little as possible in order to initiate everything. Atkins explains how each step in the history of the universe followed, by simple physical law, from its predecessor.He thus pares down the amount of work that the lazy creator would need to do and eventually concludes that he would in fact have needed to do nothing at all!

The details of the early phase of the universe belong to the realm of physics, whereas I am a biologist, more concerned with the later phases of the evolution of complexity. For me, the important point is that, even if the physicist needs to postulate an irreducible minimum that had to be present in the beginning, in order for the universe to get started, that irreducible minimum is certainly extremely simple. By definition, explanations that build on simple premises are more plausible and more satisfying than explanations that have to postulate complex and statistically improbable beginnings.And you can't get much more complex than an Almighty God!

today 8.17.08

What am I chasing? Could a step ahead be a cold step away from my true desires? Do share with me where the heart pulsates for! I cannot continue in this soft sand, glancing in all directions seeking my bliss that is as fleeting as a hummingbird. Is this current state of solid mass worth the eventual reward? Or will the reward never be known? Am I doomed to repeat this daily toil of sole activity in the sunny patio-less world of 9-5 brain absorption with no purpose? Or is this the ultimate purpose: to be a open petrie-dish of fungus, absorbing the opinions and outlook of those more accomplished than me? Those who could free themselves of comfort, guidance by elders and sense? Perhaps that is the existence I am doomed to fulfill. The tree fell in the forest and I was the only one to hear it, but my voice is silenced by timidity and apathy - therefore that tree, my ambition, never existed.

HOLA!

Today I got an email that an article I wrote about my deconversion was published on de-conversion.com! So go take a read if you want :)

go to it here. It's called "The Question of Suffering and My De-Conversion"

Reading that website again got me thinking I might get back to posting here, it is fun, and I really am craving some more intellectual/philosophical exploration

7.21.08

I have not posted in sooo long.

I got a comment to an old post about McLean Bible Church and I should post it. I had bad experiences at that church, but here is someone with a positive experience there. I have to let everyone have their say - that's only fair. I deleted the old post because I was really harsh and I'll probably repost it in a more respectful tone sometime in the future.

i think your wrong. mclean bible church may be big, and it may have alot of money but once you get into the service its like nothing else matters, the messages are dead on the songs have meaning, and the worship makes you want to fall down on your knees and worship GOd.Mclean bible lead me to christ with its powerful messages.ive been there for a little over 3 years and i have met some great people there, all of my best friends are there.. and when your relationship is based on jesus, you never get into fights, ive known my best friend for abotu a year now, and we have never been in one fight ever, because of mclean bible church and its leaders helping us out. i love my mclean bible church family and the only reasony you are saying this is because you have never gotten the fulll on MBC experience.im a christian and i love jesus. and i have never stayed at one church as long as i have stayed at mclean, and i plan on staying there until i die.

hellooooooo

I am at work, supposed to be updating our corporate blog. Let me tell you, wordpress is SO confusing when you have to create a streamlined, professional blog!

Here is an update on me - if you are still coming here, please comment me with an update on you!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am working full time now as a Sales Support/Audio Engineer/Client Relations/Blog updater specialist. It's sooooooo glamorous. I live with amazing friends - one is a Christian youth pastor girl and the other is my best amazing friend! We still live in the Suburbs of San Fran, but are moving to the city in a few months...If you are in SF you might see me at Zeitgeist, Geshtalt, The Attic, 500 Club, Elixir or other sweet hangout spots.
As far as religion goes, I am just taking it easy. Still reading up on philosophy of religion, atheism, church history, etc. but in a more relaxed fashion. I dont go to church all that much anymore, but if I do I find I can pay more attention or tolerate it if I am tipsy (probably bad I know). Life is chill right now.
On the political front, I am finding myself liking Hillary Clinton (which I would have not predicted)
um, what else is new....eh, probably nothing that interesting anyway

but please update me on you guys, or at least update yourself on your blogs so I can see how everyone is!

okay time to work

peace out for now!!

11208

I havent been on here in a while. I don't know why I've stayed away. I cant type much now because my roomate is watching a quiet movie and my typing is loud.

i'm still not christian, and havent really thought about it much lately.

this may sound weird but i am interested in hypnotherapy so i have been reading about that a lot.

more to come soon

112607

I really don't know or foresee myself being christian again, but i am starting to really think that I am less likely to convert the more i talk to christians. I am just sick of them. I have talked to a lot of my christian friends or acquaintances about my lack of faith and I can't help but just feel how much they assume that I need to be a Christian--like they try to talk to me nicely and understanding about it--but there is an underlying assumption still that they are "good" because they are christian and I am "bad" because I am not. Everyone has a remedy for me--"go to my church," "start praying again," "read this book," blah blah. I can't helped but feel judged by christians. I guess I feel so much more free around non-christians because they dont have a built-in framework to everything they do and think that assumes non christians are bad. I really don't feel like Christians are loving now that I am on the other side. Some of them are--but I dont really attribute that to their religious ties.

helloooo

i havent posted in several days. the place i work is trying hard to stay in business so i have been swamped trying to work on that and in my free time all i have wanted to do is drink beer and read. but the holidays are coming!!!--and that means a lot more reflection on religion...and more time spent in the midst of my hardcore evangelical family. i foresee a lot of commentary to come.

i miss everyone in my blog sphere of influence!

revcom.com

I know that probably a lot or most of you don't share my political leanings, but I have to say, that since I de-converted I have begun to sway very strongly towards Socialist political ideologies. I was thinking about this today, and I think it deduces to a very simple reason.

As a Christian, I essentially believed that eventually a just end would come. If there was injustice presently, there would be pure justice later. Those who suffer now would spend eternity in comfort. Those who experienced hardship in this life, would be cradled by the ultimate father for eternity. So in essence, issues of justice were important, but if not solved now, that would be okay.

But since de-converting, my entire world paradigm has changed. Now, those who suffer only get one chance at life--and theirs is ruined. Our exploitation will only serve to destroy the one life of its victims--not just be a current imposition on those who will soon have eternal bliss. Suffering becomes the totality of life, not just the short-term "strengthening of the will."

In that, I have only found mild solace in political ideologies that detest exploitation and value the human life over profit, and alleviation of suffering over the comfort (and ignorance) of the more well-off masses. I understand that socialism in practice has been destructive, but to me, the theory of it is much of what I desire.

I don't want to be comfortable while others arent. I dont want to be rich while others arent. I dont want to be healthy when others arent. I would sacrifice my current "perks" of being a White westerner in order for others to be helped. The problem in America, it seems, is that we want to help those who suffer AND still maintain our priveledged conditions.

The other day I was rushing into safeway to get a hair tie I needed for my crossing guard job and I had about 3 minutes to get one. I ran into some Christian friends in the store(one of whom is trying hard to re-convert me--we'll call him Sam) and I was able to borrow one of their hair ties and get to work on time. Sam then repeated twice to me, "this isn't an accident that you ran into us"--presuming that God arranged it for me to see them so I wouldn't have to buy a hair tie and could get to work on time. Well, maybe so, maybe it was God--and if it was God, why would he waste his power on helping me make up for my bad daily preparation and not save those who really suffer? Was not my forgetting a hair tie just as much a negative product of free will, as someone being shot by a mistaken soldier, or raped by a sexual predator? (negative not in measure of consequence, but negative as in free-will causing some sort of negative situation)

I don't know. I've said it before, but I would give up all these little "god helps" in order for others to not suffer. I don't care if I find a nice pair of shoes, or get a good parking spot, or whatever--people are dying and miserable as a result of our indirect exploitation and profit. And I have found others like me at socialist gatherings and by reading liberal papers.

It is so odd when you start naturally becoming the type of person you were once taught to fear and distrust.

the research of a de-convert

I just started the book Jesus:Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium and it is so interesting.

What is also interesting to me is the following. I have read the entire Bible, almost a dozen theology and philosophy of religion books, engaged in religious philosophical debates, and read hundreds of religious articles in my search for truth (and prayed consistently though the first five months of a total (roughly) eight month de-conversion process)....

And ended up de-converting.

Meanwhile, a lot of the Christians around me have maybe read 1/20th of the Bible and--I would venture to say-- 0 philosophical or biblical history books that are not from the viewpoint of a Christian. Yet they still believe and try to bring me back into the fold with reason.

I really, honestly am not saying I am better, but it is just interesting to me. I wonder what they would think if they travel through the minds and experiences of us de-converted.

christian responses

HI

If you don't remember, I put up a few blogs on my myspace profile (I am 23 it is okay for me to have one, jk :) where most of my Christian friends will read them. I posted because I wanted to see what kind of responses I would get. I probably should put what I posted, but you probably get the idea from reading these replies. I think it is interesting to see into the world of some of today's young christians. These are the people around me. Well, Here are some of the responses i have gotten...

My question is how do you know that these things are so bad? What is telling us that killing is something so horrible?
I'm guessing who ever reads this is like -"WTF of course the rape and killing of innocents is bad.. it just is!"
The truth is that it hurts our hearts when we see suffering. We ache so much we don't want to live. But in a world where there was no God, why would it hurt so bad. If the creator of life was not good how would we even know that these malicious acts are so evil? That is the foundational question. Not why is there evil, but Why do we care.
I guess I have two points:
1. Why do we care about pain and suffering? Pain and suffering should just be seen as another part of life like breathing and pooping. Why is it in all of us we have this tremendous desire to stop suffering if there is no good reason to our existence?
2. Maybe its because God cares. And somewhere inside of us is His compassion. But we NEVER act on it. Most of us just complain about how God never does anything. The truth is God didn't kill 6 million Jews, people did. God never blew up a school bus, people did. I guess it goes back to the idea that it's our choice. The burden and the blood are on us and the decisions we make, not God. Why do we demand something of God when we are not willing to do anything?


from another person:

In the Bible, God never said there wouldn't be pain, and suffering, and trouble and horrible things. God doesn't promise us perfect lives, and pure happiness. This person is upset because life isn't perfect. That there is pain and suffering. Well, why does god get the blame for the pain and suffering? What about the enemy? That's another part of the father of lies, which is what satan is. Instead of being mad at how satan has corrupted someone to kill or molest a child, this person is mad at God for not stopping it. Well, God never said that there wouldn't be suffering. He said take your eyes off this world. Don't be caught up in your life on earth. The good stuff is the stuff after death. That's the fun stuff, that's the party!!!!! If the bible said, "Oh life will be great, just love me and I'll make everything perfect for you" and then it wasn't then this person has an argument. But being mad at God cause the world is corrupted by satan doesn't make much sense. I never feel that these arguments are very strong or that they are deep or haven't been said before. Basically, the bible says that life is a test. That's all it is. In a world, that has ugliness and corruptness but that has taught you right from wrong. Which will you choose? The right or the wrong? The path that an invisible god promises will reward you? Or the path that says there is no invisible god, there is nothing, there is no point. Without god there is no hope, no point, no purpose. That's atleast the way I see it. Life would suck if there was no hope and no party to look forward too. That murderers, rapists, thieves, and suffering ruins lives but there is no good ever to come. That is what this world has to offer. God doesn't do that. He offers help, he offers justice, and he offers hope.

from another:

I dunno if this is gonna make any sense and I hope you don't think I'm being intrusive. But you need to ask yourself how you are going to look at the issue of free will? And also how are you going to look at the issue of Hell, and the Church. I for one have almost lost complete trust in the Church, but being a Christian is really about having a personal relationship with God. So what the Church says shouldn't be taken on face value just cause the Church does.Also I have always thought that free will wasn't a way to being more glory to God, it was a way to show that God actually loves us. Would it be love if you were in a relationship and you made the other person into someone they aren't? You only allowed them to do things that pleased you and didn't give them any free will to make their own choices? The very nature of free will is the fact that if God didn't love us he could make us into robots that served him blindly and had no choice.. Which I think would actually be selfish. Instead we have a choice in the matter, which I am grateful for. Also, The only people who actually think hell is spitfire and gnashing of teeth are the overly religious. There is a lot of biblical reference to support the fact that Hell isn't torture for eternity for not following God. Hell is just separation from God after you die. You make the choice where you wanna go when you are alive, and if you choose that you do not want to be with God, then he won't make you. Theoretically after you die you go somewhere else with all the other people who do not want a relationship with God for the rest of eternity and you will stay there being without a connection with God while the ones who chose him get to be close to him... It is not everlasting torture as punishment for picking the wrong religion, that is just Church hocus pocus used for thousands of years to scare little kids. But the Church is not the true nature of God always.

from another:

There ARE plenty of places in our world to find love. BUT, there is no picture of love as grand or blunt as the picture of Jesus. This idea of a the ultimate superhero. You could believe in Mickey Mouse but he’s a cartoon and never claimed to be your creator, willing to cross any bridge and give up anything for you. That picture of love CAN NOT be found in any religion, cartoon, or elitists thoughts on life. Don’t miss the point that this is not about whether or not he existed, why you can’t see him the way you think you are entitled to, or why he doesn’t seem to show himself the way you think he should. This point is that there is absolutely, positively without a doubt no picture of love as grand as Jesus Christ.
After that in you brought up a few things… You said we are more or less trapped here with no choice to believe or we will go to hell. I believe that’s incorrect. I remember watching at KP Yohonnan video with you a few years ago at Devin’s house and he was talking about how all the unbelievers of the third world are going to hell. I’ve come to strongly disagree with that belief. This is always a point of major contention with non-believers. I believe if there is a God as described by the story of Jesus then he is not bound by our religious institution and its rules. I’m going to use “ancient disputed books” for a sec, please be gracious with me. One verse says that God’s love is evident in all creation and another that eternity is set in the hearts of men meaning that belief in the divine and our relationship to it is not limited whether or not we knew we were for or against him the way our church teaches. When I read both of these I think of some kid in India or something. I picture him with the ability to know God without the formulas of my Christianity. My point is that I believe you don’t have to come to terms with the Jesus of the west to believe and know the story of Gods grace. I think the story of Jesus transcends language, culture, and anything else.
As for belief. If we are honest with ourselves we all have to believe in something as cliché as that sounds. The problem is that we may never know how we got here and how life started and why we are here. People chose all sorts of explanations. But if we actually look at the complexities of life it is a completely logical explanation to think that something intelligent put us here. I’m sure you’ve heard this before. My point here is that I just don’t think that anyone possesses tangible evidence, the way you want it, on an any belief. We all have two options. Believe life is a chance, random accident. Or believe some invisible entity put us here. From that point there is no explanation as poetic and beautiful as the one in those “ancient disputed books”.
And those books…. Are written by man, used for self gain, potentially distorted, full of contradictions, and guilty of way more inconsistencies. BUT, the underlining theme and story that I keep talking about is still apparent even amidst all of it’s “disputed” characteristics. Over the last few years I’ve had so many qualms with the Bible. Probably more than you. The amazing thing is, the Jesus story shines through. I don’t think the point of the Bible is to learn rules, describe history, or give scientific backing on our impossible belief. The point of it, to me at least, is to portray God’s heart for us.
To respond to Evan, I have never been guilted, scarred, or forced to believe in Jesus. I chose to believe in him because the type of love I found in him was resonated strongly in my heart. You can keep using those excuses for people to believe in God but the truth is that there is something real as to why so many of us gravitate towards a belief in the divine.
Sin is just an explanation of why when we do stupid things it hurts us. If some one along your life made you feel bad for sinning they missed the point. Sorry you had to feel bad. Sin works like this. If you kill some one its bad. If you steal from your friend its bad. I’m glad you feel free of “sin”.
Don’t be so ignorant to not put science, atheism, materialism, and others in your list of gods. You like me serve something and believe in something. Also don’t be so ignorant to miss the point of most religions. They explain why, not how. The how we got here is for science. The why we are here science will never fathom. You CANNOT base any explanation of WHY we are here or what we are doing in life on fact. The fact is that we should celebrate when a crippled person dies because it is better for our survival. But we don’t. For some reason we all believe that human suffering is bad. Science never explains WHY. Only HOW. Jesus never tried to explain HOW only WHY.

internet savvy biotch

YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I finalemente got internet in my apartment!
more posting and commenting soon

hello :)

i am at work. i have been in a bad mood for the past 24 hours, but it seems to be passing now. i don't really know why. About two years ago, if my mood suddenly turned good like this, I would probably get chills and smile and thank God. Now, I just think that I am happy.

Even if God is real and does give us those little happy times, I would WAY rather give those up so he could have time to save humans from suffering and eternal damnation. I will gladly give up close parking spots, finding money on the ground, and all other little "God sightings" so that one less kid dies of AIDS today. That doesnt make me a saint or anything, I just feel that way.

hiii

Drat! I am at work, but I found something that I want to read and you might want to as well.

Comcast.net asked people to weigh in on this question:

Do you believe in life after death? Have you ever been visited by the spirit of a dead relative or friend? Do such visions or visitations have any theological meaning?

a lot of people have answered thus far...here is the link

Also, there is a piece written by a well-known deconvert from Islam author who seems interesting. Her name is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The link is here.

wahoo!

I decided to join the Peace Corps! I am applying for an October 2008 departure.

I told my parents last night, and they are surprisingly excited. My mom took a while to soften to it because she didn't understand why I wouldnt just go on a short-term evangelist mission instead (serious), but my dad is stoked! He is already talking about visiting me wherever I end up! Well, I have to get accepted to the program first.

but yeah, are there any former Peace Corps volunteers who have come to this site? If so, how was it?

I thought about doing this when I graduated college, but now I am sure I am ready for the 27 month committment. Anyhow, i wont bore you any longer.

Faure way

Have you guys ever read any Sebastien Faure? I picked up his pamphlet entitled, "Does God Exist? 12 Proofs of the Nonexistence of God" at an anarchist bookstore (good place for religious philosophy resources--the place is called "an anarchist bookstore") a while back and I just recently gave it a second read. There are a couple things that struck me about his writings, and about he himself. I would like to know what your opinions are of him as well.

Anyhow, in the first section of the text there is an "About the Author" section where it describes how Faure grew up in the Catholic church and schooling, and then he became atheist and and Anarchist later in life. One of the most interesting parts for me was the following excerpt: "The religion of God was soon superceded in his heart by a deep-rooted devotion to the welfare of mankind." This is something I have been thinking about lately. It seems to me that a lot of de-converts, and never-converts reject christianity because they reject the conflict between a "good god" and an unjust world, or rather, they cannot get over the Problem of Evil. I really, really had no clue about this until i became a de-convert myself. I really did think that non-believers were chasing sin or were hard hearted or selfish and that christians were really the purest caring people in the world (of course I must qualify that by saying there ARE a lot of purely caring christians in the world). This was all I was ever taught. Honest, it is embarassing now to admit I used to think that. I don't really have much else to say about this point, other than the fact that is has astounded me how many of us de-converts have a deep set need to fight injustice--or at least have a deep set distaste for it.

Another part of the pamphlet I found interesting is under Faure's proof called, "God could not have created without a motive: It is impossible to discern one." In that section he writes, "Let us examine God before Creation. God is alone, self-sufficient and perfectly wise, happy and powerful. Nothing can improve His wisdom; nothing can increase His happiness; nothing can strengthen His power. Such a god cannot experience any desire because His happiness is infinite; He cannot look toward any aim because nothing is lacking in his perfection; he cannot formulate any plans because nothing can increase His power; He cannot be determined to want anything because He has no need for anything."

Come to think of it, I cannot even really pull out why exactly I believed God created us when I was a christian. I might just be drawing a blank, but I am trying to remember why. Something about Satan detracting from the other angels or something. Or God created us for his glory. Or I dont know.someone please help me with this--I am probably forgetting a lot of places in the Bible where it talks about this. This is sad. I was an on-fire christian for the first 22 years of my life, and I can't remember this stuff? It is sad to me that I cannot answer this question, but somehow I was qualified enough to go on a half-dozen mission trips and save human souls from eternal damnation? I digress.

But faure's proof kind of makes sense to me. How could a perfect God create something imperfect, or even conceive that imperfection could exist? If everything we have comes from God, where did evil come from? Is God not the only creator then? so many questions!

I have a feeling that with this question, as with many we ask, my christian friends will reply with something along the lines of "we are mere humans, how can we know?" I will quote Faure once again to give a more comprehensive picture.
"They (christians) say: 'You have no right to talk about God the way you do. you present us with a God-caricature systematically reduced to the proportion which your comprehension is only capable of according. The God which you present is not ours. Our God you cannot conceive because He overtakes you; he escapes your comprehension. Knoweth ye! that whatever in the way of might, wisdom and knowledge might appear fantastic and immense even for the most pwerful man is only child's play to our God. Do not forget that Humanity could not move on the same level with Divinity. remember that it is impossible for man to comprehend God's ways as it is impossible for minerals to imagine the ways of vegetables, for vegetables to conceive of the ways of animals and for animals to conceive of the ways of men."

To that, Faure responds, "Are you (christians) not men, as I? does not God overtake you as He does me? Does not God escape your comprehension as much as He does mine? Or have you the pretense of moving on the same level as Divinity? Have you the affrontery of thinking and the foolishness of stating that with a simple flap of a wing, you have reached those summits occupied by God? Are you so presumptuous as to affirm that your finite mind has embraced the Infinite?... If the fact that I cannot conceive and explain God does not give me the right to deny Him, the very same fact, which also holds true for you, does not give you the right to affirm Him!"

some replies

here are some of the replies from my christian friends to my myspace blog post

marie, i value your opinion and i think you are a very intelligent, caring, loving person. that's why i am responding to this.
i don't think following Christ is a comfy blanket in any sense of the term.
Alot of the time, I'm not even happy with my life. But the joy that I have knowing that the creator of the universe loves me unconditionally is more than I need to wake up the next day. Yeah the world sucks but how did it get that way? God didn't do it. We did.
But there are so many beautiful things in this world that I believe can be explained by no other way than that it is a creation of the Lord.
I have questions too. but beliving is not seeing or hearing or feeling. it is just believing. and I totally understand how hard that is. Because I didnt believe. but now i do. because the Lord showed me His unending love and there was no other explanation for what it was.
but keep asking questions.
i love you!!!



I dunno if this is gonna make any sense and I hope you don't think I'm being intrusive. But you need to ask yourself how you are going to look at the issue of free will? And also how are you going to look at the issue of Hell, and the Church.

I for one have almost lost complete trust in the Church, but being a Christian is really about having a personal relationship with God. So what the Church says shouldn't be taken on face value just cause the Church does.

Also I have always thought that free will wasn't a way to being more glory to God, it was a way to show that God actually loves us. Would it be love if you were in a relationship and you made the other person into someone they aren't? You only allowed them to do things that pleased you and didn't give them any free will to make their own choices? The very nature of free will is the fact that if God didn't love us he could make us into robots that served him blindly and had no choice.. Which I think would actually be selfish. Instead we have a choice in the matter, which I am grateful for.

Also, The only people who actually think hell is spitfire and gnashing of teeth are the overly religious. There is a lot of biblical reference to support the fact that Hell isn't torture for eternity for not following God. Hell is just separation from God after you die.
You make the choice where you wanna go when you are alive, and if you choose that you do not want to be with God, then he won't make you. Theoretically after you die you go somewhere else with all the other people who do not want a relationship with God for the rest of eternity and you will stay there being without a connection with God while the ones who chose him get to be close to him... It is not everlasting torture as punishment for picking the wrong religion, that is just Church hocus pocus used for thousands of years to scare little kids. But the Church is not the true nature of God always.

I dunno, I hope over the years you have seen that I have actually thought out what I believe intelligently, cause I really respect you a lot and I hope you don't think i'm some christian sheep or religious nazi.

other blog post

Here is what I posted on my myspace blog. it's not profound, but i am curious about peoples' reactions.

I am having trouble seeing the christian God as anything other than totally narcissistic and self-centered. Here is a quick outline of why.

FREE WILL is the cause of all suffering(bad people do bad things to other people because they have free will to do what they want). God gave us free will. God created the idea of free will--therefore God created (or more lightly, "allows") suffering.

God knew about free will before it existed. God knew about suffering before it existed. (Because he is omniscient)

God knew free will would cause suffering. God still CHOSE free will.
therefore...
God values free will over the alleviation of suffering.

The purpose of free will is to allow us to more purely seek God, and not be robots in our worship of Him. Ultimately it is so God gets the most honest glory and honor.

God chose free will to get the most glory and honor for himself.
God values his own glory and honor over the well-being of humans (because if there was no free will to worship him, there would be no suffering).

God chooses himself over people for his own benefit. God is selfish.



ALSO...

Why do we have to be forgiven to be saved and break the original sin of Adam and Eve? God made up everything, therefore he made up the fact that Jesus had to die and we have to ask forgiveness for sins. If God is all-powerful, he is not bound by the Devil's power, and he can choose to save everyone on earth from eternity in Hell. Yet christians believe that unbelievers go to hell. This says that God can save everyone, yet he chooses not to.



The church tells people that unbelievers dont believe the Truth, because they have a lust for sin. This is not true. A lot of us don't believe, because it just doesnt make sense.

People have believed in gods and afterlives long before christianity existed. I need help seeing why Christianity is the Truth, and not just some other comfy blanket for humans to keep warm with in this terrible world.

she puts the DOPE in doping

As you guys may have heard--Olympic Gold Medalist Marion Jones totally admitted to using steriods for 2 years before she kicked ass at the Olympics. I am pissed. I hate these athletes that do this. I was a track and field athlete for years and I did look up to these women who could perform amazingly, and now I am let down and mad that it was all a farce. Jackie Joyner-Kersee should smack Jones.

I feel like sports are not designed to be a gateway for these "athletes" to get their much sought after limelight. I think of sports as a historic pasttime and human activity to quench our need for competition and pleasure. (I also lean a bit like Chomsky in thinking sports can be a way for the government and corpoations to keep people distracted from knowing what really goes on in the world--but I still watch football on the weekends :) ) Therefore when these athletes just use drugs, it is like they are playing a video game rather than using their own human abilities to particpate in human events.

I dont care if Marion Jones is a woman and has 2 kids. She knows EXACLTY what she did and I hope she is rightly punished. We need to keep steroids OUT OF sports.

some thoughts on this beautiful, crisp friday morn

Good Morning self, and anyone else reading this!

I am sitting at a table with endless wi-fi, a steaming cup of coffee (refills are only 25 cents here!) and a big blueberry muffin (sorry Sara, if you are craving muffins and cant find a good one in Goa). Anyhow, I am here. and I am excited to get back into the blog thing. Not like to really post in that I think I have valid things to say, but I just like the intellectual stimulation I get from reading arguments and interacting with other peoples' cool thoughts and such.

Aw, I see a lady at this coffee shop quite often, and it appears she broke her arm (she just walked by me). She is an older woman who has a cane, and she always has her nose in one of those romance novels that costs like $2. Her cast is neon orange. Go Girl!

To tell the truth, I haven't been thinking about religion much lately. I think that is a result of working 10 hours/day, taking my dog to the dog park way too much, and watching Rock Of Love on VH1. haha. but yeah, for some reason I took a break. But now the weather is getting colder, I should be getting internet at my apartment soon, and I just put a cozy hanging lamp above my desk (which sits in my closet) that I can't wait to sit under.

I think this muffin I am eating is made from angel food cake. I also think there is a men's bible study in session a few tables behind me.

Oh--well, I went to a christian discussion group the other night. My friend who goes to it TOTALLY made me go. She knows I am not christian and she wanted me to come and give my perspective and I did not want to go. But she made me. so as a compromise, she let me drink some beer before I went, haha. I guess to christians, she did a good job of being persistent in getting a non-believer to go to bible study!

Anyway, it was kind of a bust. First of all, there was a tacit implication (does that make sense?) that everyone was Christian. so that was odd.

And the first question was, what do you struggle with? Is it with bitterness? Gossip? laziness? difficult life circumstances? trouble with the truth?

So I spoke, and I asked for the pastor to clarify what "trouble with the truth" was, because I thought that it might be like, having a hard time believing in The Truth. And he just goes, "like, if you have trouble with lying." haha! So anyway, I just twisted that and said that I have trouble even believing in God and that I don't believe. And maybe I am overemphasizing it, but it seemed that everyone was like, "uh-oh" in a way. And then the floodgates opened--or rather the Red Sea unparted, and everyone just talked about why they believed and why they do not struggle with the Truth, and they were all looking at me the whole time they were talking and being like, "does that make sense?" to me and stuff. And in my brain I was like "Hell No," but I nodded anyway. haha. so yeah that was a bit awkward. People basically said that I grew up with religion as a formality and i am having difficulty adjusting to making my faith my own. But that is not true. I do not believe! Is that so hard to swallow? And they dont even know me to know that I was a hardcore christian for years when I was a relatively free-thinking adult. So yeah, kind of a bust.

And then I got the group to talk about suffering. And NOT EXAGGERATING, people totally said things like, "suffering, I mean suffering is like totally crappy, but you have to overcome it. God made suffering for us to overcome it." and another (one of the worship leaders) said, "suffering is not God's fault, it is just a result of free-will. People hurt people, not God." and another girl TOTALLY said this, "I think suffering can be God's punishment on people." yeah, she went Falwell on us. So I just kept my mouth shut for a bit, and muttered that i dont understand why a good God would value free-will over the alleviation of human suffering, and how do people overcome suffering who DIE in the middle of it? and I got really mad that people were saying "suffering is crappy." It's like, "Sorry 8 year old girl who was gang raped by 20 men and now you are lying mutilated and barely breathing by the side of the road, left to die and rot--your life is crappy, but if you overcome your suffering, you will be stronger and see God's love!"

Anyway, I didnt like the group (i like the people but not the discussions). They kept saying "This is Great! We are really questioning things! We are admitting we dont have the answers!" but really they are questioning nothing and just coming up with any answer to suffice so that God wont smite them for being ambivalent.

OH--and we ended early, which was JUST in time for that Heroes TV show to start. Which I find curious, because a lot of the people in that group are obsessed with it. haha I am terrible.

but anyway, that was that. I MAY go again, just to get some fodder for discussion.

when I was a christian, I did what they do--I made up answers to tough questions so I didnt have to really think about them. If someone asked me a "tough" question, I wouldn't sit and THINK about it, rather I would like survey my brain for an answer and give it. I totally used to do what everyone in that group was doing so I can't act like I am better or different. It is just interesting to see that kind of talk and behavior from the other side. The DARK SIDE! JK

WHEW! that was a lot of typing. If you read to this point, i am WoWed!

helloo my friends

hellloooo alllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my internet sucks fat and i have been reading comments and all but i cant easily post back or devote the time i would like to it. I think tomorrow I am going to camp out in wi-fi land at a coffee shop and spend some good time blogging and commenting on your guys' blogs and such. i really appreciate the comments and i enjoy them immensely

i went to a christian discussion group the other night. it bombed haha. i kept my mouth shut mostly, but got a few good conversations in. i will post about it later. Also, i posted a blog on myspace (hey, i'm 23, i can have a myspace! haha) about some christian questions and i am thinking a lot of my christian friends will comment, and i will post those answers here.

how is everyone? with the weather cooling down, i think i will spend more time nestled up in my "home office" (a.k.a. my desk in the closet) and blog and read blogs and get back into the swing of things. some of the blogs might be kind of weird because I get really into Oktoberfest beers and winter beers and i might drunkpost! jk, well, maybe.

for any beer nerds out there...

can i just tell you that I love the Monty Python Holy Grail Ale? i also enjoyed a Duvel, a Drak, a Warsteiner, some Bitburger, and a Spaten. SOOOOO good!
today I bought a 4-pack of Tetley Pub Ale, a Samuel Smith's organic lager, a chimay white ale, a Paulaner Oktoberfest, and a 12-pack of Schlitz beer (only $5.99!) i might start rating beers on here just for fun. hey, better use my free-will for something, right?!

life sucks, and please dont tell me all I need is Jesus

the rude awakening that life sucks is just that, rude. i have been really really realizing that over the past few years. There are no good countries to live in, no good places to work, no religion worth a damn. just life and death.

you can do good and it wont matter, you can cheat people and you will win. I watched the movie Fast Food Nation and it taught a good lesson--the good people in life will lose while the bad people rule over everyone and make all the money. it is true. i used to be an idealistic save-the-world-er and i have to hold onto that because it is the least of the evils, but we cant save the world. aid organizations are corrupt and assholes work at them, the government is full of terrible human beings, and fighting back just gets you killed.

sure there is momentary happiness, and plenty of reasons for smiling in the day, but if i look at the big picture, at this entire world, there is no choice but to despair.

so what's the point of life? i am not sure. i guess i will just live out my days like any other animal--find food, shelter, companionship and then die.

sorry for the depressing, but everyone has to figure out this stuff out sooner or later. i will probably feel better in the morning.

mbc reply

A while back, I posted about a church I went to in Virginia when I was Christian and how I was disgusted by their extraordinarily exhorbitantly expensive video game rooms and such. The post can be found HERE.

Well, I just received an email from the Student Ministries there who found the post. I thought I would post his reply. I appreciate his respectful tone, although I maintain my disagreement with the church's expenditures and such. I think it is good for me to put it here because it isn't fair that I can just rant and not let people speak their opinion against mine.

Here is the pastor's email...

I ran across your blog about your experience @ our church. I'd love to speak with you about your experience and what we might learn to avoid others having similar experiences and to offer you a verbal, personal apology. The Bible says "Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed." (Proverbs 15:22)If you really would like to have a sincere dialogue, please call me as I would love the opportunity to speak with you, each of us having an open mind, as to what we might learn from one another.

I realize, as an atheist it appears, you clearly disagree with:
a) our beliefs - God, Jesus, The Bible
b) how you experienced (unfriendliness) and interpreted our means of sharing our faithand we are constantly reminded how we do not do justice to the God we serve, as sinful people (1 John 4:11 - "since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.")

But I can assure you that when it comes to our youth center our goal is to do the same as when:

a) I was a kid in youth group and board games were the means of building community amongst participants before and after service

b) our students served in Peru and Mexico for weeks this summer to impoverished children where balloons and puppets met the need for fostering social interaction) when Jesus himself walked the earth 2,000 ago, meeting people's physical and emotional needs in order to ultimately address their spiritual need for Him. (Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us)

So while I can see where you might disagree with what we believe, how we stumble in living it out as sinful people, and how we choose to do run our programs to further our faith and share our beliefs, I hope you can understand and even respect our desires.

Give me a call if you really would like to explain further your experience. Thanks again. I appreciate your honesty and candor.

That was pretty nice. I am going to reply to him thanking him for his respect and candor--although I think he slightly missed my point.
For one:

I was an honest, sincerely believing Christian when I went to his church and at the time I had no real problem with Christian beliefs or the proclaimed beliefs of his church

Also, my problem was necessarily that games were used to attract and distract children--but that seemingly tens of thousands of dollars were spent on video games. Also, he cites board games used at church when he was a kid--I think that is a good idea! Board games usually are cheaper and they involve a lot more interaction between kids--

And also, I think it is nice the kids go on mission trips, but I have to say personally, that I dont think Christian youth should be ministering to people in other countries. I support like eye-opening trips to the third world for kids to learn and absorb and do more relief work, but I disagree with having kids conduct VBS or other christian teaching or outreach. (I have been on over a 1/2 dozen of those things and so I am very familiar with what tends to go on at them)

On the whole, I am grateful for the church pastor's reply. I think it is really nice that he thought I was worth taking the little time to talk to, and his attitude is a lot more open and sincere than I expected.

I think I will change the title of my old post--not the post, but the title was pretty harsh.

see you later!!

m

BIIIIIIIIIIIG EPIIIIIIIIIIIIIC BATTTTTTTLE!!!!!!!

Okay, for those of you who are unaware, I LOVE KATHY GRIFFIN. She is that red-headed comedienne who has a different face every time you see her because she has so much G.D. plastic surgery. Yeah, she is so funny. Anyway, I was reading today about all this outrage surrounding her Emmy Award acceptance speech. Apparently she said, "people usually thank Jesus for this, but Jesus had nothing to do with it, suck it Jesus!" or something like that. I mean, tasteless, but also harmless. But now people are SOOO up in arms about it, making it their mission to take her down and boycott her and stuff. I mean, cool, whatever.
It is sad to me that THIS is the mission of a lot of Christians. It is a mission that can be fulfilled sitting on their asses. They can make phone calls to the news complaining, while sitting on their ass. They can write stories for their website and boycott her program, while sitting on their ass. They can fight this epic battle against the devilish ginger kid (reference to south park) ALL while sitting--you guessed it--on their behinds. What a brave and noble fight. What about fighting real battles--like fighting for the rights of the poor and the tortured, fighting for starving kids to eat and drink safely, fighting to free enslaved human beings? Na, I'd rather sit and make up controversy while eating my Pringles. on my ass.

OH YEAH--and a Christian drama troupe spent over $90,000 on an ad in USA Today against Griffin and for Jesus. see HERE

oh and BTW, I have two friends who kick ass and are Christians and are working in India to help enslaved women and other needs--that is a real battle!

you can read their blogs here :

SARA

RACHEL

some thoughts

I have been thinking about God a bit more lately. I can't say that I have come up with any amazing conclusions--or even observations for that matter. But Here are some questions I am pondering...

1. why does God have to be good?

Just because God is God--creator and all--why does that necessarily presume he is only god? Is it because as humans, we have evolved to desire those things we label "good" and to comfort ourselves in the knowledge of a God--he has to be the embodiment of those things?
Why is it supposed to be so obvious that a God would be good? And why is ONLY the Christian religion allowed to have a purely good God? Why can't Allah be good as well?

I don't know. I am kind of assuming that it reduces to power and human need. Power--because in order for the commodity of Christian faith to be marketable and profitable, it must be desirable. And the only thing more desirable than a pretty good god, is a totally good God. If our God is the only perfect one, then people will want him and all the other religions can suck it or something.

And humans have had need for supernatural gods seemingly since the beginning of human time. Deities have been in existence in the beliefs of humans for like all time--either they exist and are trut, or they are all the result of humans needing to believe and sustain a belief in a God.

2. If God is purely good, how could he have created, or allowed to be created, a world in which their is immense evil?

Aside from the discomfort in the conflict between a good god and evil, I wonder, how exactly could a good God allow evil if he is only Good? Is goodness like a chromosome? I guess since he is God, he can do anything he wants and all--but in that, why do we allow him to self-proclaim as wholly good when he most clearly does not stop all evil? Which presumably he is able to do?

This is a really odd, bad and underdeveloped analogy, but it just came to me

Let's just pretend that I am all about empty pools and that i am 100% committed to all pools being totally devoid of water. I have a staff of a million people, so I realistically can empty all pools and the capacity to get the job done is no problem.

So what if I ONLY emptied pools that had water in them? I never stopped anyone from filling their pools, I just waited until people filled their pools totally, and then I would go and drain the water in the dead of night--not telling them what I had done or why--so they have no idea that filling pools should not be done.

That would be stupid. My job would never be done, and no one would ever TRULY know what they should do or why with their pools?

That is a bad analogy, but I kind of think it is similar to the Christian God.

We have a God who is TOTALLY good. He proclaims all things good and has the capacity to turn everything to good and all that jazz. Well, he (let's assume) makes good things--he helps some people get healed from diseases (let's assume) and he gets people good parking spots at the mall, he comforts people, etc. BUT he doesn't do anything to STOP all evil. He doesnt soften people's hearts (it is assumed he can harden them) so that they choose peace instead of war, he doesnt use supernatural means to halt a hurricane, or blow it into the ocean...he doesnt put a sign in the sky to warn innocents of impending tsunami death, etc. He just lets it all go and cleans up later (kind of).

Wow, that is a great, good God. I dont believe so. I actually have to say I would rather trust my not-so-good, not-so-bad self in this life.

this is my roomates's dog. she is so cute, no?

I haven't written anything here for a while, I guess that is kind of how this de-conversion thing works though--I go in and out of caring about religion at all...but at the core of it, I am still totally enthralled.

I dont have much to say. I have been thinking a lot, but not writing anything down. I think I will start again though.

Oh and one more thing--if you have not listened to the Kronos Quartet yet, YOU MUST. They are like the most amazing musicians in all existence and they have like 30 albums with tons of different sounds. Go look them up, I recommend the album Kronos Caravan for a start.

The media sucks, they even stupidly admit it!

Just a quick complaint about the media. I hate the media.

but yeah, I guess Owen Wilson atempted suicide or it is alleged, or whatever. Anyway, apparently he asked the media to respect his privacy while he heals--but the media is ALL OVER this thing. It was talked about on Larry King last night, there are updates on comcast.net like every 15 minutes, and it was on the Today Show and CNN this morning--what the hell? the media is so dumb. They keep reporting "Wilson wants the media to respect his privacy..." and then they stakeout the hospital and talk about his history of drugs, etc. What really pissed me off, was I saw on comcast.net, they have this section called "your say" or something, and they asked the question, "WHY DO YOU THINK OWEN ATTEMPTED SUICIDE?" HOLY SHIT. There is so much wrong, in my opinion, with the average Joe citizen chiming in on why someone totally disconnected from them attempted suicide--


anyway, i am really annoyed. i hope i am not bringing unwanted attention to Owen's issue as well, but I thought it was necessary to explain this mood i am in.

i want to boycott comcast, but with no competition in cable where i live, i have no choice for the time being--

peace!

real news

I am thoroughly enjoying this news site that Exapologist recommended

http://therealnews.com/web/index.php

God's Warriors

I watched the first episode of God's Warriors last night on CNN. Here is my quick review of it...

So last night I watched the first installment of "God's Warrors," a three-part miniseries on CNN created by Christiane Amanpour. If you haven't heard of it, the series profiles three of the world's major religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity). She examines the root of the religion, major contentious issues concerning that religion, and how these issues manifest themselves in the daily lives of more militant/hardcore followers. Each religion is given a 2-hour block on three consecutive nights.

I saw a preview for this series in early Summer and have been looking forward to it ever since. What really sucked me in initially was the cool music they had playing behind the ad! It is this lower pitch, eerie but powerful brief thing, but I really liked it.

Well enough of the music. Last night I watched the special on Judaism. Please keep in mind that I drank like 3 beers as I watched, so the end might be a little foggy.

The special was really well done in my opinion. There was great footage from the Holy Land, they interviewed a lot of people, including Jimmy Carter, this crazy Jewish power couple from New York, and I think Ariel Sharon--wait, is he dead? just kidding--it was a good series, BUT, I would only watch it on TV, I would not buy this. The reason I say that, is that this is not a quintissential documentary on the subject. IN my opinion, this was a good general introduction to the faith and extremism, but it did not dig as deep as I would have liked. In that, I still think it is good to watch. It put faces with the Israel/Palestine conflict, and it didn't seem to paint Jews as necessarily good or bad--which is not easy for many reporters to do. I do think it did a good job of highlighting the issue, introducing us to who is behind it, and discussing major events in the Jew/Palestinian history.


Here are some highlights: I am being vague here because either you know more than me, or you will watch this series and get the details yourself

-There was a basic outline of the issues surrounding the West Bank and Gaza, why the Jews want to be there, and why the Muslims want to be there as well--it did a pretty good job of making it more clear as to why the Jews and Muslims value the same sites

-There was an interview with a devote Jew who led the initial settlement efforts, and another non-religious Jew who lives in Israel but doesn't really give a shit

-A lot of the beginning was about the history of the settlements--how Jews came onto the land saying they were only staying temporarily, and then they stayed perm. --I think this provided a nice groundwork to understanding why the settlements are such a divisive issue.

-Then they profiled this Jewish power couple in New York who raise millions of dollars to reclaim Jerusalem--they seemed kind of crazy

-They also went into the jewish lobby in the US which I found very interesting. They talked about AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee) which a lot of my college classmates worshipped (they were mostly from New Jersey) and how the US doesn't really want to be supporting Israel in all the ways it does (US gives roughly $3B to Israel annually?) but it is the Jewish lobbies that get Congress to vote for this stuff

-An interesting part examined partnerships between Jews and Christians to preserve Israel. It was kind of funny because the Christians were like trying to say they support the Jews and Israel--but also that the Jews are probably going to Hell. It wasn't that black-and-white, but it was pretty much what they were saying...

-there was more I am forgetting


But yeah, this was a nice thing to watch and well put together, but if I wanted to dig deeper, I probably would rent like 6 different Frontline documentaries or something rather than just watch this one episode. As sad as it is, I actually think it did miss the connection between religion and extremism at the core. The documentary showed that there are extremists, and why they are extreme--but I think they could have done a better job showing how the issues connected with the Torah, or Judaism more closely. It was definitely there, but in my opinion, I thought they could have spent more time and detail on that--which oddly enough seemed to be the core of the entire program.

In all, I liked it and I recommend it; however, I would have preferred this documentary portion on Judaism to be about 4 hours long with input from Tom Friedman and other people who write a lot about this topic, more from Jimmy Carter, and others. Oh- and I wish Larry David was on it also haha just kidding.

With that said, I am still really looking forward to the next two segments on Islam and Christianity.

PEACE

gone daddy gone

I was reading on another blog by A Thinking Man, about his "coming out" as a non-christian, and his de-conversion. It was interesting to me to read something he said in brief. He was explaining the process of de-converting and all that he encountered during that time, and I found this part very interesting.

"Although a degree of general unease and doubt had been happening over a number of years (Does God really answer prayers? He doesn’t seem to answer mine.)"

It made me think about all of us or others who have de-converted and what we went through while we were still trying to hang onto our belief. I remember trying to maintain a belief in God and a trust in him...I tried praying so much for him to reveal himself, for him to help me make sense of everything, for him to just give me anything, any sign that he was alive.

It is scary to de-convert at first. I totally stayed up at night worrying about Hell and condemnation, worrying about what my parents would say, and if I would be able to hold onto my friends and family. I feared the Devil and questioned why God would seemingly "choose" me only to have my admission into heaven be retracted. I got angry, feeling that God hardened my heart and that I was chosen for eternal suffering. ---Basically all these thoughts went through me and I prayed really hard for a while for some peace and rest in this situation.

Anyway, I just am imagining all those who have de-converted, before they did so. While in the process, trying desperately to hold onto their previous beliefs and the beliefs of their friends or family--holding onto the familiar, and what seemed the most comforting and hopeful. People--adults--praying to God at night for help, only to receive no answer, only to wake up feeling stale. That makes me sad and angry.

A vision that came to my mind in this was one of a child and its dead mother. I have learned about and been exposed to a lot about women dying in war and in famines, etc. Many times, they will have children near them as they die, and the child will remain with the mother even long after she is gone. All that is familiar to them, all that has nourished them is now gone and unresponsive. In some cases, children have been found trying to suck from their dead mother's breast. It is definitely one of the most disturbing scenes that this planet has to witness-- I also think it kind of fits with de-conversion.

Our concept of a father, a provider, nourisher, caretaker, is dying or dead, yet we still try to cling onto him, we make excuses for his silence, telling passersby that he is alive, he is just silent--when all the while he is dead and never existsted.

I dont know, maybe that is too morbid or a stretch, but it is in my brain today.

de-testimony

at the new de-conversion.org forum (which you can go to HERE), there is a place to post your de-testimony. I wrote mine up this morning and I thought I would post it here too...it just is an off-the-cuff deal



"Oh God, you are my God, and I will ever serve you"...NOT.

I grew up singing all the lameass church songs that you know are lame at the time, but you are too afraid of eternal condemnation to even whisper a critical comment about them. I grew up with church leaders who seem like they are bitchy and judgemental and the only place they can criticize others without it being a sin is to pick on kids in youth group. I have been to summer camps, winter camps, mission trips, waterski trips, watermelon seed spitting contests, paintballing, pizza parties, pool bashes, and bible jeopardy extravaganzas galore. When I was in 4th grade, I made sure to memorize as many bible verses as possible so I could get the prize of a giant strawberry lipsmacker or fun-size butterfinger. I wore dresses to church which I hated, I tried to fake sick to get out of church at least once a month. I have done all that a young evangelical can do between the ages of 1 and 21...everything that is, except think for myself.

I was pretty brainwashed until I was 18. My best friend and I secretly hated church and would goof off all we could and make fun of everyone because we thought we were cooler...but essentially I was under the spell. I was terrified of sin and anyone who sinned. I was freaked out by homosexuals or homeless people, I thought that divorced women were bad, that non-christians who rode their bikes on sunday instead of church, deserved an eternal pit of fire. I wasn't a bad person, I was just overexposed to the church and God.

This all started to shift when I started thinking about college. I had always been interested in world affairs and injustice, but I never had the opportunity to develop as a human being in that field. So when it came time for college, I really just let go. I started to read about torture and war, watch documentary movies on sex trafficking and the poor. I basically self-taught myself abot human suffering and despair. I essentially got a more realistic worldview. So then I spent my college time studying war and peace (my college major was International Peace and Conflict Resolution), watching tapes of babies with severed limbs crying and women pleading for their lives in the Rwandan genocide. I sat face to face with a torture survivor from Rwanda who lost 17 family members and watched his wife be raped and macheted right before his eyes. At this point, the discrepencies between a "Good God" and a "Bad World" became more than just fodder for a 3-part sermon series, they became a tragic reality.

It wasn't until really my last semester of college that I began to really question. I attended a mega-church who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on video games, basketball courts, and fountains and no time on getting to know the congregation. I was shunned by the other kids in college group and the leaders too. I guess being a punk girl from California wearing tight black pants, converse, a washed out torn t-shirt and a homemade Clash hoodie didn't really fit in with the Northern Virginia Christian culture. but anyway, I found myself doubting, and exploring questions I didnt even know existed, while at the same time being pushed out and away from my so called "home church."

And basically from there the questions kept coming. I questioned suffering, free will, the arrogance of God, Biblical inconsistencies--basically what we all post on these forums about. I started a blog about 4 months into this big quest of mine and started discussing these issues with Christians, atheists, theistic agnostics, etc. And I realized over time that all the christian answers were those I already knew. I could answer my own questions but all those answers missed the point. So on and on with all the questioning, I just got further and further away from christianity and more towards agnosicism/atheism. I read books, discussed online, asked my friends, etc--all with an open mind to religion or no-religion. And no-religion was winning.

So in about early March of this year, it came to me. My heart switched off. I could kid myself no longer. I was not a Christian. I didn't make the decision, it just happened. Maybe my heart was "hardened" or maybe I came to the real truth. Whatever it is, I do not know. The only thing I do know is that I feel more free, more developed, more healthy now. I am not afraid of condemnation or Hell. I am not held down by fear and I am no longer trying to make excuses for God's silence.

Who knows what the future will hold. I will likely never be Christian again, but I do like the idea of a God. But as long as there is suffering in this world, I just have to commit my life to stopping that--not wasting my time reading christian self-help books trying to improve my prayer life all the while innocent human beings suffer and die.

So now, I probably sin, I hang out with homeless people and gay people without a second thought, my sister is a divorced woman I adore, and I ride my bike around town on Sunday mornings. Life is great.

de-conversion.org

Hey ALL!!!!!!! I swear I am here still!

Anyhoo, there is this new kickbutt forum that AgnosticAtheism (de-conversion.com)started and it rules. You all should sign up, I think the discussion will be really great

here is the link, setting up an account is way easy too. I want to see everyone on there!

go to it HERE

vid

interesting video here. It is kind of interesting to me too, how much the media sways towards religion when interviewing atheists and agnostics.

god, good...atheist, bad

I find myself feeling afraid to be an atheist. I cant place an exact reason, but I think it has a lot to do with...

-not fitting in with "christian society"
-worrying people see me as a demon, or being subject to other discriminations
etc.

but nonetheless, i don't believe. and even the list above cant make me believe.

is that bad?

I may have done something bad, but oh well.

I applied for a job at my church today. I applied for a custodial, part-time position so totally unrelated to christianity and stuff.

But anyway, on the application, there was a question that asked if I was a born-again christian and if yes, when I became christian...

So I totally circled yes

I wonder if I would have gotten the job if I had circled no. I mean, religious discrimination is illegal, right? I mean, especially for a job unrelated to the faith in that I will not be preaching or doing anything really related at all--just vacuuming and scrubbing.

well, I guess i lied, but I was "born again" at some point--and why not have someone like me cleaning the toilets? Wouldnt they want their godliness to rub off on me?

I don't know. I dont really feel bad at all. I just hope they dont want me to write about God or something. I am totally good at BS-ing that shit, but still. oh well

back

Wow i have not posted on here in a long time!

I guess i have been taking a break, incidentally. i moved and took on another job and had some friends visit so i havent been able to get on here as much as I would like to.

One interesting thing did happen though I guess. My two friends who live in Mexico now came and visited me and we talked some about religion--not much, but some. They talked about how they believe in a god but not necessarily the Judeo-christian God and not necessarily in the tenets of christianity. Essentially, they are theists and I really connected with what they were saying they believed. I dont know why, but it made me want to believe in a god. Not the christian God and not the Bible, but in a creator. Presently I do not believe in a god, but I really would like to I guess. I like the idea of God, but I cant just make myself believe in one.

Anyway, that seemed interesting. I also was realizing that I really dont think I will ever be a christian again. I just really cannot see myself turning back to that faith.

more later glad to be back i have a lot of catching up to do on all of your blogs!

Wartime Prayers

My friend Katie got me really into Paul Simon and I am like obsessed now.

Here are lyrics from a song from his album, "Surprise" . I recommend listening to the song. The last part makes me cry just reading it.

"Wartime Prayers"

Prayers offered in times of peace are silent conversations,
Appeals for love or love's release
In private invocations
But all that is changed now,
Gone like a memory from the day before the fires.

People hungry for the voice of God
Hear lunatics and liars
Wartime prayers, wartime prayers
In every language spoken,
For every family scattered and broken.

Because you cannot walk with the holy,
If you're just a halfway decent man.
I don't pretend that I'm a mastermind
With a genius marketing plan.
I'm trying to tap into some wisdom,
Even a little drop will do.
I want to rid my heart of envy
And cleanse my soul of rage
Before I'm through.

Times are hard, it's a hard time
But everybody knows all about hard times.
The thing is, what are you gonna do?
Well, you cry and try to muscle through
Try to rearrange your stuff
But when the wounds are deep enough,
It's all that we can bear,We wrap ourselves in prayer.

Because you cannot walk with the holy,
If you're just a halfway decent man.
I don't pretend that I'm a mastermind
With a genius marketing plan.
I'm trying to tap into some wisdom,
Even a little drop will do.
I want to rid my heart of envy
And cleanse my soul of rage
Before I'm through.

A mother murmurs in twilight sleep
And draws her babies closer.
With hush-a-byes for sleepy eyes,
And kisses on the shoulder.
To drive away despair
she says a wartime prayer

sermon questions

As you may or may not know, I still attend church. I go to church most Sunday nights with my Christian friends. I go because I am not fully "out" as a non-christian to people and it is easier now for me to keep up appearances than answer prying questions by people who wont understand why I dont believe anyway--and also I figure that I may learn something interesting or earth-shattering that may lead me to become a Christian again, or I may also get some good fodder for discussion here. Also, contrary to the fact that so much christian music sucks ass, the music there is pretty good. But anyway, I come with a few questions and comments about the sermon this past Sunday.

The sermon was on the subject of the Exodus and how God used it to kick Pharaoh's ass and prove his strength and all that. Well anyway, there were a few interesting points that I would like people to comment on.

First, the pastor woman (yes woman) said that she had a hard time dealing with the fact that God caused all the firstborn sons to die in the plague against Pharaoh. I agreed. What was interesting though, is that the pastor had everyone raise their hands who felt uncomfortable with the fact that God would kill all these sons, and out of probably 115 people, I was either the ONLY person to raise my hand, or one of a few (I didnt look at the rows behind me). Now, this may be because people didnt feel like raising their hands, but at least there was an obvious general apathy to the question. That bothered me.

But anyway, the pastor said that she could begin to be less disgusted at the plague when she realized that it was really the only way for God to show he is supernatural and in control--because all of the other plagues can be explained away by naturally occuring phenomenon. God used the killing of firstborn sons because it could not be explained but for an all-powerful God to do it. What do you guys think??? I am still digesting that and it doesnt make me feel any better at all.

Also, she talked about how God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would reject God's plea for the Israelites and how that bothered her too. Me too...
But she said that some scholar said that it wasn't really God that hardened Pharaoh's heart, it was that Pharaoh's egotistical heart was hardened incidentally by the fact that he realized God was more powerful...does that make sense to you?

Well I am holding my reactions to myself for now because I want to discuss this stuff more. What do you guys think about this subject and her answers?

what is suffering?

what is suffering? I have been hearing about "suffering" since I was a kid in church, but I don't think I ever understood it--nor do I still, because I really have not suffered at all. I feel like a lot of times, we throw around suffering as more a theoretical concept, than something that is actively happening and is actually grotesquely horrific.

I think it would be almost crazy for someone to hold onto their faith after they have truly suffered--but I guess it would be admirable if they could also. I met a couple torture survivors when i was in college. They were part of this organization who promotes the survivors of torture telling their story publicly as part of healing. I went to one of these presentations and I was confronted with suffering head on.

One man from Rwanda lost 17 members of his family in the genocide including all 5 kids and his wife. He saw his wife raped in front of him and killed, his kids killed also. After the genocide, he was imprisoned by the new government for helping his former enemies. He was in jail and tortured for 2 years. He could barely speak about what happened, he could barely even move any parts of his body. That is suffering. Now he is alone. I have to admit I would think him crazy to say, "well, this is part of God's plan."

I am reading a book about the war in Bosnia. Here is a passage...

"For a moment I could see nothing in the smoky gloom. My torch began to flicker, dimmed and died. I beat it back to life on my thigh and looked again. Three women looked back at me. They were kneeling in a small box-shaped pit sunk into the stone floor, huddled together in fear, their arms and hands entwined in support. Normally the hole would have been used to store grain and covered with the wooden trapdoor that now lay upright on its hinges behind their backs. It would have been the ideal place to hide. Close the lid and the pit would be nearly invisible. There would have been just enough room for three people to lie beneath it. What gave them away? I wondered. A cough? A sob?

Two of the women were in their twenties, the third was an old lady. Someone had shot her in the mouth and her shattered dentures cascaded with her own teeth down her front like mashed melon pips. One girl had been shot repeatedly in the chest. It was difficult to tell whether the other had her throat cut or been shot; a great gash of blood cresented her neck. The expression on their faces had survived the damage. It was so clear. A time-valve that opened directly on to those last moments. So you saw what they saw. I hope beyond hope that I never see it again."

He also describes a man whose youngest daughter was raped beside him when he was on his death-bed.

I am sorry--this stuff is depressing--but this is suffering. Suffering is not just being in debt or something, suffering is unimaginable to me. I cannot, cannot, cannot justify the suffering that we talk about so nonchalantly. I cannot even begin to fathom how a good God would use this to his glory? That makes me sick that God would allow this suffering for the express purpose of people worshipping Him--how is that not the most selfish thing?

What is suffering? Why doesn't God stop suffering? If God wants all to be saved, why would he let muslims be brutally pillaged and massacred before they could convert? Why did he allow Adam to commit the first sin? Why is THIS SUFFERING a just punishment for one man disobeying God? WHY?

I asked God. He said nothing.

is nationalism a sin?

When I was a christian, I thought about this a lot...

Does the War on Terror or more generally, the principle of first-strike, mesh with Christianity?

I think no.

I was always amazed that Christians could think it Godly to support a war that was built on killing our enemies before they kill us (or take away our BMWs and ice cream). I see the act of Jesus dying on the cross as this...

We harmed him through sin, and yet he chose to sacrifice himself, in order that we should live.

I see the War on Terror as this...we must sacrifice those who harm us (and innocents too), to protect ourselves.

To me, that seems like the opposite. I am pretty convinced that hardcore nationalism is sin and ungodly (if Christianity is true, that is). Sure, I can love my enemy when he takes my parking space, but not when he is threatening my safety...what a cop out.

And some might say that our enemies now want pan-Islam and want to convert us all and we are just defending Christianity...but I don't think the Bible says, "love your enemies--unless they're muslim." If christians are going to pick and choose what they like from the Bible (ignoring God's sponsored cruelty in the OT), then they have to live with the "loving, self-sacrificial Jesus" who I personally think, would reject what this country is doing to save its fat ass.

speak truth to the wall

In a lot of these blogs, the Christians say that one must have a relationship with God to best understand him, and that one cannot truly comprehend God's justice and love from without the faith. And that the only way to really hear his voice is to pray, etc. This topic came up again in the posts and it made me think about my own Christian life.

I was a Christian. For a long time, actually, and for a lot of years I could have been referred to as "hardcore." I have prayed and asked God's help and justified it when there was no answer. I have read the Bible through a Christian soul and mind and skipped over Judges and difficult passages...that is why when I started my spiritual journey here, I wasn't too worried about "turning away" because I thought that God would just give me the answers. But when I started to ask tough questions, I mean really tough questions, I was amazed that there were no answers. I prayed a lot actually and still there was nothing. My Christian mind was baffled and confused until I finally realized that there was nothing holding me to the faith. I didn't want to let go of Christianity, it just sort of happened. So in that, now, I am not a believer, and most christians would say that I am not saved. Why didn't God help me answer these questions? Why didn't he fight for my soul when I was probably most open to the revelation of his "truth"? I don't know. But now I am "condemned" to Hell for not speaking the language of silence.

One of the biggest lessons I have learned recently is that there are tons of people like me. Tons who were christian and have examined big questions through the God-lens and have been totally dissapointed. So that really no longer is an answer for someone to say that you have to already know God's love to understand it. I thought I knew God's love and if he is real, then I think it is fair to say he kicked me to the curb.

The last thing I will leave is something that Slapdash recently commented on this blog...

"The more and more I prayed, the fewer answers I got. God didn't in fact reveal himself to me while I was in "close relationship" to him. My agonized prayers begging for understanding went completely unanswered.This is a terrifying experience for someone who has been told, and believed, exactly what you claim - that we can understand God when we are in relationship with him; that God will reveal himself to us if we earnestly seek, with a pure heart. For me, God's silence in the face of my many tear-filled prayers has been overwhelming."

That is totally my experience as well

drugs, diseases, death all part of God's loving plan that is not selfish at all, right?

I know this is talked about frequently in forums and stuff, but I really was thinking about it a lot this morning at work. If there is a God, and he is the Christian God, why did he create drugs and diseases that effectively take over the brain and "souls" of people? (or at least allow these to be created) A lot of people "sin" when under the influence of these substances, and have no control, so why did God let that happen? Does he secretly have a sick interest in us sinning? Also, why does alcohol make us drunk and we lose our general operating capabilities? God did not have to let that happen when we drink alcohol, but he did. And I am not just talking about the negative consequences such as drunk dialing people or acting stupid, but rather actual, real deaths and suffering that occur as a result of these substances. Most rebel groups in Africa are hyped up on drugs and alcohol which allows them to commit horrific atrocities. Couldn't God's "mission" in this world be completed without these terrible things?

I would like to know the Christian explanation of this. I didnt think about it too much when I was a Christian. And I will probably explode if someone says "because it's a fallen world..."

raw

I made another blog on war. If anyone is interested, I would like the other blog to have multiple authors and contributors, but if not that is ok too.

here: http://peoplebleed.blogspot.com/

*****If you would like to be an author, please send me your email address because I need it to add you. If you do not want to post your email publicly on here (I will delete the comment with the email in it after I read it), then my email is accessible through my profile on here and you can send it that way. Thanks!!

***OH And Steve--I need your email to add you, I am stoked you are interested!

selective mourning

I am observing an interesting pattern of bereavement in my family. My parents were really, really over saddened by the deaths of Jerry Falwell and Ruth Graham, and now the owner of our local Christian bookstore died. I definitely understand that death is sad to all people, but I can't help but notice the special death mourning treatment that christians get in my parents' eyes compared to non-christians. It might seem to me that the death of a Christian would mean that God "took them home" and now they are in paradaise--that sounds pretty sweet to me, but is a non-christian dies, then they are burning eternally in the pit of Hell--that is really sad to me. So why do some christians act like christian deaths are 1000x sadder than non-christian ones? I don't know.

does anyone live in the Bay Area of California? I would like to get a beer or something with a lot of you guys who come here. I know it is like hella shady to meet people from the internet, but it would be cool to have realtime conversations about this stuff and meet you guys

non-christian bumbling

I am slowly coming out to people that I am not a christian anymore. VERY slowly. I only tell them when it is apparent that it would be the most appropriate course. It is starting to really sink in that I have hardly any non-christian friends and I hope things don't get awkward as the Christian ones find out. I remember what it was like to be a Christian and hear that someone turned agnostic or atheist and I really couldn't help seeing them differently, or at least seeing them as more hardened than I had before. I shouldn't assume that is what others think, but I dont think I can rule it out either. I also have been dumbing down the severity of my problems with Christianity because I do not want to offend any christians, or necessarily bring them down, or make them feel uncomfortable or that i think they are stupid or anything.

What is the best (if there is one) way to talk to christians you love about being non-christian??

Farewell to God

I havent posted in a while because I have been busy and reading, but I just finished a book and I recommend it. It is called Farewell to God by Charles Templeton. He used to be an evangelist like Billy Graham (he in fact used to work with Graham) and then he deconverted several years later. This book is essentially his proclamation of all the reasons why he cannot believe in the Christian god.

His arguments are not very complex, and some details of them I would say are kind of weak--at least underdeveloped--however, they make a lot of sense to me...but, I think it is a good summary of many reasons some previously devoted christians reject the Christian faith. It is an easy read too.

He basically goes through a lot of major stories from the Bible, events of Jesus's life, and major issues in the church, and shares the questions he had and his views resulting from critical observation. In this way, I dont think he succeeds in necessarily putting together a totally clean, perfect case against christianity, but he at least illustrates a ton of contradictions in the Bible and in the general practice of christianity today (at least in american--or rather, Western christian churches).

on the whole, I would say try to buy it used or get it from the library--but if you have to spend the $14, you could probably find value from it.

nowlife

It is kind of amazing how I value life way more now that I dont believe in an afterlife. I mean, I really would like an afterlife, but now I don't have confidence in it, so I have to really make this life the best possible. It is crazy, because I really think about that every single day--I need to be around my friends and enjoy life, I need to get my things in order to travel, I need to do what I want to and what will make the most difference and be the most satisfying...before, it was just about getting by and waiting for heaven to be perfect.

What do you guys think?

def

I think I have come up with a definition for my current state of (dis)belief. I can't say it will never change, but for now this is it...

I do not believe in the Christian god. I realize that I cannot successfully reject completely the existence of some supernatural beng, but I am not at all remotely convinced that the Christian god exists--especially in the capacity he is discussed popularly today; therefore, I choose to live my daily and collective life under the assumption that there is no god. I do, however, pledge to continue on in my personal pursuit of truth and I commit myself to be open to wherever that may lead.

I guess that is it for now. There is a lot of redundancy in the wording, but that is just for emphasis I guess.

Anarchy in the SF

Yesterday my friend took me to an anarchist bookstore and it was actually a really cool experience. Ever since shedding my christianity and its narrow-minded, contradictory nature, I have been able to really keep an open mind about things. I know nothing about anarchists so I am definitely not an anarchist, but the bookstore had books on so many subjects that now make sense since I am not examining them through Christ's blood colored glasses. There was a really interesting book on the Rwanda genocide that detailed the many failings of government, UN and other actors--and the information in it was legit--before, my christian mind would have said that some crazy person wrote it in a dark room who is angry and hates our christian nation, or something. But now, I am starting to realize that there are a lot of viewpoints in life that can actually make sense if examined intelligently. Obviously, there are a lot of books and stuff that are published by crazies, but from now on I am not prepared to just write off everyone. I mean, we are all human beings, we all found ourselves on this earth, and we are just trying to figure out how to live.

I bought a couple pamphlets that I am reading through...

"The Hardcore/Punk Guide to Christianity"

"The Heretics Guide to the Bible"

"Does God exist? 12 Proofs for the Non-existence of God"

"For God and Country: Torture and its Justifications"

another debate

John Loftus started a new debate on Debunking Christianity that should be pretty interesting. Here is his opening argument. I am looking forward to reading Tom Wanchick's responses and getting into these arguments in more detail. I know there is an endless supply of debates like this, but I still really enjoy them.

Tom Wanchick challenged me to a friendly little debate on the existence of God, but that's not an interesting question to me. The reason is because the God Tom wants to defend stems from his Christian beliefs. He doesn't just want to show God exists. He wants to defend his Christian faith. Besides, even if God does exist he may only be a distant deity, which is not much different than having no God at all. So after some talk we decided to debate the existence of the Christian God. We shall do so here, and my opening statement is up (and also posted below). With a 600 word limit I cut to the chase.Previously Tom debated Richard Carrier on Naturalism vs Theism. This present debate narrows his focus even more.

1) The Bible is filled with mythic folklore. Here are just a few examples: There isn’t any way to harmonize the creation accounts in Genesis with the age of the universe, granting the time necessary for galaxy, star, solar system, earth, animal, and human formation. The stories of Adam & Eve, Cain, the pre-flood ages of men, and the flood itself have no basis in historical fact. There are similar polytheistic stories like these which predate Genesis by as much as 350 years. Since older sources are to be considered the more reliable sources, then a monotheistic God was not involved, if these events happened at all. There is also no archeological evidence for the Israelites in Egyptian slavery for 400 years, or of their wilderness wanderings for 40 years, or of their conquest of Canaan.

2) I find it implausible to believe that a Triune God (3 persons in 1 who always agree?) has always and forever existed without cause and will always and forever exist (even though our entire experience is that everything has a beginning and an ending), as a fully formed being (even though our entire experience is that order grows incrementally), without a body (and yet acts in the material world), in a timeless existence (and yet creates time), having all knowledge (who consequently never learned anything), and who is the source of all complex information found in the details of the makeup of this universe. This God purportedly has all power (but doesn’t exercise it like we would if we saw a burning child), and is present everywhere (and who also knows what time it is everywhere in our universe even though time is a function of movement and bodily placement). How is it possible for this being to be called a "person," who thinks (which demands weighing temporal alternatives), and who freely chooses who he is and what his values are (even though we never find a time when such choices were made by him)?

3) This barbaric God commanded that witches and people who worship other gods should be killed. He commanded that men should rape women in the spoils of war, and even commit genocide. He allowed people to own slaves which could be beaten within an inch of their lives. He commanded that men should divorce their wives simply because they had a different religion, and women were pretty much defenseless without a husband. He demanded blood sacrifice in order to forgive sins. There is no cogent explanation for how Jesus’ death atones for our sins. He will eternally punish those who don’t see enough evidence to believe in Jesus, while not providing enough of it to believe.

4) The world this God created is not like the world we would expect to find if a good God exists. There is too much natural suffering in it for man alone to be blamed. The law of predation is simply unnecessary. If God exists he could’ve made us all vegetarians and made edible plants grow like weeds do today. If God exists he could end the wars between religious faiths by revealing himself more clearly.

5) God revealed himself in a historically conditioned book before the printing press, even though almost anything can be rationally denied in history, even if it happened. For an omniscient being, he chose a poor medium to do so. I challenge Tom to find one passage in the God’s OT revelation to be considered a prophecy (and not wish fulfillment) of the life, death, or resurrection of Jesus which singularly points to him.

I havent posted in a while, but that is because I am taking the time now to just examine my thoughts and (dis)belief--kind of like a mid-term evaluation

be back soon!!!

some +

I feel bad for being negative here so much. I mean, that is what I am feeling--but I shouldn't just be a bummer all the time. For all the Christians around me that have scarred me, there are a lot that I know who are good and inspiring. Pretty much all of my friends are christians--at least on the West Coast where I currently live. Also, most of my friends come from broken homes--many with abusive parents, and some with heavy pasts in drugs and alcohol...yet they really strive to be good people. One of my closest friends has lived a difficult life. She never knew her dad, lived around with her mom and various boyfriends, didn't have money or comfort, etc...and in all the 8 years I have known her, she has never complained. She is very hospitable and generous, funny and caring, and she loves God... Two other friends of mine are recovering alcoholics, who I am certain couldn't have stopped drinking without Christian faith--for one of my friends, her first day sober (3 1/2 years and counting!) was at church, and they both readily attribute their strength to God.

I am not saying that these people make me think christianity is true, but they definitely show me that some people can apply certain selfless teachings of the Bible, and can find comfort and encouragement in Christianity. Christianity does seem to have helped my friends more than anything else could, and I am grateful for that.

There are also a lot of Christians who really want to live simply and serve the poor. I used to protest with Christian peace and social justice groups when I lived in Washington DC--we would sing hymns as people would get arrested for protesting inaction on Darfur, or harsh treatment for immigrants--one time, a bunch of us protested in freezing temperatures against the cutting of food stamps from the Congressional Budget. It was so moving to sing hymns while people are getting arrested for trying to get food for the poor.

When I see Christians who really try to help others, and really strive to serve the world, it breaks my heart to reject the existence of God. Not that their actions make me think there is a God, but because I want to be able to live like them--living out a strong faith through the sacrifice and dedication of compassion and service. I can do those things without God, but it is just different.

Two of my favorite christians (catholics, rather) are Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day. I recommend 100% their autobiographies-- The Seven Storey Mountain (Merton), and The Long Loneliness (Day).

SCP

There is a very interesting couple of posts on Stupid Church People. Steve asked his readers to state why they do or do not believe in christianity.

http://www.stupidchurchpeople.com/

making excuses for God, Part 1.5 billion

I am supposed to be working but I can't get enough of this discussion on Debunking Christianity that Exapologist referred me to. (http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com) Actually--rather than "not getting enough" I feel like I am getting WAY too much, but it is still engaging.

+++++++before you read this, keep in mind that I don't mean ALL Christians in any of this--just a lot, maybe most Christians that I personally have ever had relationships with, or who are at least in my sphere of vision++++++++

When reading that slavery discussion, all I can think about is excuses, excuses, excuses!!!! Christians make so so so so so many excuses for God--it makes me sick. I know how it feels to want to cling on to faith, but give me a break--The most common thread in christian comments and blogs seems to be..."I understand that God can seem unjust and the Bible seems shady (understatement)...BUT I still have to believe." or something like that. I think Christians do a human injustice to themselves and those around them by making excuses for God.

On another note, I really think that the brand of Christianity we have today is just a passing phase. I think a lot of people would agree with that. The problem is, that so many christians treat the current view of Christianity as an end in the logical evolution of truth--and seemingly the last link in the chain of faith. My mom is so confident in her own personal interpretations of Scripture, that she actively judges and condemsn people based on what she concludes in her own head! Last night we were talking and she was explaining a certain scholar's interpretation of Heaven and that she thinks he is totally wrong because when she reads certain passages in the Bible, she sees it differently. I just think that what people see now as "truth" probably will seem elementary or heretical to people 100 years from now and so on and so forth. That is how we see a lot of early christian sects today who probably were as confident in their beliefs then, as we are now.

I also have been thinking about a lot of Christians' treatment of "non-christians." I think a lot of Christians are really judgemental at heart and they are Christians because it allows them to justify their judgement. I am around a lot of really, really judgemental Christians. A christian related to me actually insulted my friends to my face saying that they are a bad influence because they come from broken-homes and didn't go to college (NOT exaggerating!). Christianity makes it so easy to look down on people--rather than learn about others and actually make informed judgements about their life(which I still think is wrong), we can just label them "non-christian" and judge them without any further investigation! That label of "non-christian" tells us that those people outwardly reject God's love, they favor sin and the darkness, and they allow themselves to be influenced by Satan at the core.

I am probably being hypocritical in some of this as I am judging Christians, but whatever--this is my blog.

now that's what you call music?

I dont have much to say right now. I went to church last night (I still go because my family does not know yet that I am not a christian), and there was a guest worship leader. His original songs were so bad and he just sang the same words over and over like 60 times (big surprise, huh?). I mean, the lyrics were seriously this...

"Jesus, you set captives free
Jesus you are alive in me
Oh I want to shout your name
I crave your love and mercy (repeat 40x)"

or something like that--just totally lyrics that anyone can pull out of their ass (I just did that above)--and he was kind of a douche. It is just amazing how worship songs can be so badly worded and simple. They usually have one of three drum beats, and one of four melodies and the words have to do with feeling God inside, ringing bells, lifting hands, and mercy. Even when I was hardcore christian, I had difficulty singing those songs from the heart. But that might just be me.

I am not making an argument, this is just my observation--I just think that if someone is a human trying to make original music for the creator and sustainer of the whole entire universe, the music might sound better and be more eloquent--I mean, a lot of hymns have genius wording and great metaphor--nowadays it is all crap.

I think that is just more evidence that the christianity we have now is a passing phase and not the only way to live or be saved--if it even is relatively true at all.


Enjoy this video of a genius song not about God--called "strange Fruit"...it is a protest poem/song against lynchings and burning of blacks in the south in the 1930s. sung by Billie Holiday

zapatNOs

today is a shitty day--nothing special

but i was thinking about something. i went to a shoe store to buy a pair of shoes for my friend's wedding this weekend. i found a perfect pair of shoes--perfect color, everything for my dress (my dress is not easy at all to find shoes for) and so I was excited. but then all they had in stock was the shoe 2 sizes too big for me--and too big to try to pull off. So I kept looking around the store for other boxes to see if someone had just misplaced my size. 25 minutes later, I walked out of the store with a different pair of shoes (that i since found will not work). Okay--this is no big news, not interesting, etc....but I wonder, I just really wonder, what if I "miraculously" found a pair in my size? behind some boxes or on the floor? What if?! Would THAT have been God looking out for me? If that happened, the former Christian me would have thanked God and told my friends about it how God provided and it was so cool because just when I was feeling frustrated, God revelealed the magical shoebox in the corner of my eye like the golden ticket in Willy Wonka.

Well, he sure didnt provide today.

I just think of all those petty little situations that we think God has a hand in--we ignore so many mundane, shiteous things--to me, that proves the existence of "coincidence"... not God.

parental no-control

I have big, big problems with Christian parenting. I am the child of Christian fundamentalists, as are many of my friends. It has become apparent to me that when you are the child of christian parents, you have two options: become an evangelical robot or rebel, resent your parents, and cut off relations. There is another option I am seeking, but it seems pretty unlikely that I will find peace.

One characteristic I have seen of Fundamental parents is that they are extraordinarily controlling. They think that any family problems can be easily fixed if the child succumbs to their advice (even if that child is in their mid-twenties, or thirties). My oldest sister recently got a divorce, and my parents would keep her on the phone until she was uncontrollably crying to tell her how she was handling the situation wrong, how her (ex)husband was a terrible human, and how she made the mistake of putting up with him--but also they think that divorce is a mortal sin so they spent at least a year trying to get them to stay together. Their entire premise, was that they could change the situation--even though their daughter is 29 and they live 3,000 miles away from her.

I think a lot of christian parents use guilt and money to keep their kids close, rather than genuine, unconditional, open-minded love.

Another example is with my current job. I am working on a documentary film and I do part-time sound editing. For the past two or three weeks, I have not been needed at my editing job, and things are going slowly at my film job(it takes a long time to found a production company)--so my mom told me that she was thinking of telling me to quit and to get another job! I told her that I make MY decisions, so that will not happen, but I just was astounded that she should believe I should change jobs based on her uninvolved, personal feelings. I think this is something a lot of christian parents do. My best friend is dealing with SO MANY of the same situations with her parents, and so have others I know.

Also, James Dobson talks a lot about parents always being on the same side and not contradicting each other in front of their kids. I dont think that is necessarily bad advice, but in practice, I do feel it is bad. Probably, at least 40 times growing up, my mom had me cornered in a room and screamed at me for various things--I dont feel comfortable sharing what she said, but they were emotionally damaging things, especially to an adolescent female. And all of the times, my dad was silently standing behind her until it was over--never telling her to stop, never trying to calm her down, never defending his own 9-year-old daughter against her own mother shouting insults. I believe he valued Dobson's advice over his kids' psychological well-being.

There is more, but I feel weird revealing very much. But anyway, I think there is SUCH a close-mindedness in christian parenting that the parents either succeed in fashioning a perfect evangelical robot-child, or their kids (like me) want to cut them off forever. I am trying to figure out what to do. I want to have a relationship with them--but a human-to-human relationship where I am a respectful non-christian and we can appreciate each other without judgement. Obviously, I am the child--but I am an adult too. I am being shown that that is an unlikely outcome, and that my non-christian identity will likely be the point of us cutting each other off.


I think there probably is good christian parenting advice, but at least in practice in my experience and some others, it can be terrible.

keep others from Hell by eating doritos

"If the people believe [in hell], then their attitude about the whole thing reveals that they could care less if the creation burns forever. The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued. Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon rich dainties with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place a million times worse than a burning building!

If they believed what they teach, they would never cease, day and night until they dropped, and others came to take their places, in their efforts to save men from such a place! They excuse themselves by saying, "All we can do is warn." But if they were standing before a burning building would they preach a thirty-minute sermon, then turn and walk away, saying, "All we can do is warn!" And how many do they meet day after day, and never mention their danger?"

i am screwed

I dont know, I am kind of hating the Christian god a lot right now. I am 95% sure I do not believe he exists--but whenever I read about god I get to feeling sick and bad. There is such a conflict between this idea of forgiveness and god's sadistic love to throw angels into hell for sin and other stuff. There is so much bloodshed and death and suffering at the hand of god--and then his apparent son/self comes along and tells everyone else to be good...it is gross. And all of this--all of this pain--all of this violence is because a fucking snake tempted adam and eve to disobey god. ALL this for one instance of disobedience?! How selfish and conceited god is! That is fucked up. It might be just me, but it kind of seems like God was just waiting for an excuse.

harvest resurrection

It is interesting to see how resurrection themes appear in ancient and indigenous religions. Among other groups, the Pawnee indians would sacrfice a male on their land each year, believing that his blood would fertilize the ground--and when the harvest came, the tribe interpreted that as the man's resurrection. Then, he was considered a god. It is from these types of rituals, that it is thought our understanding of a god sacrificing himself and being resurrected comes from.

I know that there are a lot of gaps that science has thus far been unable to fill...and occurences that science still has not explained--but when I read about all these different groups who believed that their agricultural haul was related more to spiritual rites, and less to fertilizer and planting patterns, etc....it makes me wonder what other ways in the future, science will be able to enlighten us that we are just kidding ourselves.

If anything, this all just makes me realize that our brand of Christianity is just a phase--even if Christianity is true. All this trendy focus on "giving it up to God" and biblical literacy seems like just another period in the long existence of religion.

new book, new interesting stuff

I have just started reading the book series by Will Durant on the History of Civilization. Right now, I am working on Volume I called, Our Oriental Heritage.

I am reading the initial section on ancient religions and I am seeing a lot of practices that were parts of hundreds of different groups--and these practices are so similar to Christianity.

For one, I was reading that a lot of Greek and Roman and other groups saw the snake as possessing divine power in reproduction--thus the serpent in the Adam and Eve myth could directly symbolize their sexual awakening.

Another interesting thing is the practice of eating gods. A lot of groups had "totems" that were animals who were considered taboo--forbidden to touch, eat etc. But, occaisionally, they would hold rituals where they would eat the god--eat the dove, or the fish, or the pig...that is totally like communion where we eat Jesus's body. The ancient people even claimed (as we do) that they "felt the spirit moving within them as they ate it."

Also, Durant posits that the view of God as "father"likely developed out of ancestor worship. Initially, gods were animals, but then those gods turned into human gods and the ancestors were worshipped. People believed that men were physically begotten by the gods.

"For in dealing with a crowd of women, at least, or with any promiscuous mob, a philosopher cannot influence them by reason or exhort them to reverence, piety and faith; nay, there is need of religious fear also, and this cannot be aroused without myths and marvels. For thunderbolt, aegis, trident, torches, snakes, thyrsuslances--arms of the gods--are myths and so is the entire ancient theology. But the founders of states gave their sanction to these things as bugbears wherewith to scare the simple-minded. Now since this is the nature of mythology, and since it has come to have its place in the social and civil scheme of life as well as in the history of actual facts, the ancients clung to their system of education for children and applied it up to the age of maturity; and by means of poetry, they believed that they could satisfactorily discipline every period of life. But now, after a long time, the writing of history and the present-day philosophy have come to the front. Philosophy is, however, is for the few, whereas poetry is more useful to the people at large."

--Strabo's Geography

thinking generally

I am young, so I haven't studied a ton of history, but I am starting to think about lot of things about our faith and our world in terms of its historical frame. For instance, I was wondering recently, why we want an afterlife so badly--and I realized that cultures and religions since the beginning of man have been trying to answer the afterlife question, and have been believing in gods who are more powerful than us here on earth. In this, Christianity is much the same. We long for "more than this life" and a God who can do everything for us, but I really am curious why.

I also wonder why so many religions are exclusionary in who gets to have an afterlife--or at least how that afterlife is played out. I forget all the terms, but in re-birth, your karma or way you lived your life, determines what you will be re-born into, in Islam and most christian sects, you will not live in eternal paradise if you are an unbeliever, etc. Part of me wonders if this kind of thinking didn't originate at a time when it was necessary to differentiate between members of your own group and enemies or something--a lot of world conflicts are like that today--where one party in a conflict finds a difference between themselves and the "other" and then exploits it to win power. That difference can be religion, tribal identity, geographical location, even physical differences. It is easier for militias to form when all their members have something in common that the enemy does not have--and religion would not only serve to unite a group, but also to exclude others and demonize them. I don't know, these are just some of my thoughts. Not that Christianity just demonizes for power--I am not saying that at all, but I am just curious how the original ideas developed that allowed for those "outside" the religion to be seen so negatively, and so deserving of eternal damnation.

Mr. Deity

"The number of episodes in the Mr. Deity series is now up to nine. The short films are produced, written, and star Brian Dalton, who uses them to explore the lighter side of religion. The first episodes were launched on January 17, 2007, and within a few days there had been over 200,000 downloads from YouTube, iTunes, and at his own webpage, mrdeity.com."

this is probably boring, but it is how I feel

It is interesting and a little frustrating to be around my parents so much lately. I lived completely on my own 3,000 miles away and now that I am back with parents, it is weird for a lot of reasons.

But right now, I am finding it difficult to keep up christian appearances with them. I decided not to tell them of my de-conversion until I move out (which hopefully will be soon) and after I pay them back a couple thousand dollars I owe them. I want to be pretty independent of them because I anticipate a really negative and harsh reaction from them that might lead to some bad relations for a while.

Anyway--the day-to-day Christian discussions are getting harder for me to handle. They talk about certain things about church and the latest church gossip, and whose kids aren't christian, and what God is doing--just a whole mess of stuff that I have to listen to, nod my head to, and try to pass off without getting into an argument. It is hard because sometimes when my mom speaks, I get this bad feeling in my stomach--tonight we were talking about my friend's mom who worries a lot, and my mom was like, "Yeah, I think God is really working on me to worry less--like about being late to things..." and I just feel weird. I really can't explain why, but I just feel gross when they talk about a lot of faith issues that I don't believe anymore. I wish I didn't feel that way.

It is hard because my parents can be really cool, caring and nice, and I don't want to dissapoint them. I mean, their dream is to have a perfect Christian kid, and their nightmare is to have a non-christian kid (like me).

Things on the whole are pretty good, but it is difficult to go through these motions.

This whole thing is still so bizarre. I am looking forward to the future when this is not so fresh. But it is weird how now I am more sympathetic to atheists than christians, and how I am trying to figure out what things I really think are wrong rather than what I was scared into thinking. Right now, I will admit that I am overcompensating away from christianity I think because I spent so many years as a christian and so little time as an unbeliever--so I feel I need to explore "the other side" more. Also it is just weird that I feel so alien around Christians now. I work part-time in a flower shop/salon my friend manages and I was there this weekend--and the hairdressers and their clients are all christians, talking about God and Jesus and all this stuff, and I wanted to join in and I wanted to feel like a good person, but I just felt like kind of a little monster or something.

Anyway, I am sure that this stuff will pass--I am just in a place of transition and I am starting to be introduced to all that entails.

gwarmin

I was just watching the news and there was report of a recent study soon to be released about global warming--the study confirms that global warming is real and that it is mainly a result of human activity. This is not a post about global warming, but seeing that report made me think of something.

I wonder why do so many conservative christians refuse to believe in global warming? It seems interesting that on the issue of global warming, cons christians demand proof from science about global warming and won't believe it until there is no more room for doubt--but with Christianity--or religion-- it is the opposite...they cannot fathom why someone else would need scientific evidence in order to believe.

make excuses part II

Also, Jesus talks about the Kingdom coming "soon," and when we question why it still hasn't happened 2000 years later, christians just say that "soon" is relative and God is outside of time, and all that jazz. There again, we make an excuse for Jesus's ambiguity.

make excuses

I think Christians really perfect the art of making excuses for God. One example: If a prayer is not answered, then it is just not God's timing or the answer is no...

...so like, If I pray for my friend to be healed, and she is--then God answered(and is good)...if she is healed 5 years from now from some new medicine that was put on the market--then it was not God's timing when I originally prayed(and God is good)...and finally, if my friend dies, then God's answer is no (God is good). So no matter what happens, I can tie it to God and never have to think about the fact that maybe he doesn't exist.

In thinking like this--YOU CAN'T LOSE!! Every possible outcome is designed by God and there is no way to refute it. it just seems too convenient

now reading

I am reading this right now. It is from the current Newsweek.

It is a debate between Rick Warren and Atheist Sam Harris.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17889148/site/newsweek/

Warren seems like kind of a dumbass. That's mean--just an ass. But then again, it is all perspective because a year ago I would have praised him and trashed the atheist. how weird

100th post!

Honestly, it is so nice to have virtual friends here to talk to about this stuff (I only say virtual, because I only know everyone though my computer screen--I guess "digital" might be a better term). I really can't imagine trying to do all my questioning without access to discussions and other viewpoints. I want to say thanks for the responses to my last post--it is nice to hear that it is okay to slow down and really think about things.

I think it is hard to slow down when dealing with these big questions because when I try to talk to someone who is christian about this, they usually ask me a million questions and try to prove to me that I still am a christian by trying to quiz me into oblivion. The truth is, I don't know all the details of why I do not believe, I am not able to quote a laundry list of biblical inconsistencies, write long proofs about morality, or chart the complexities of darwinism off the top of my head. Christianity is an easy place to get into, but a hard thing to get out of--I feel like I signed up for America Online and they wont let me cancel my membership ("but you purchased the lifetime membership contract!")

exhaustion

I am getting exhausted mentally and soulfully. I feel like when I am trying (or others in the same spiritual boat try) to honestly ask questions and be real about our issues with Christianity, we are so often just lambasted with "just have faith" "just ask God to show you He is real" "Why should God have to prove himself to you?" "How much evidence would it take" "you are going to Hell" , etc. responses. I mean, I totally understand that some people are really caring and from their perspective, they don't want people to lose their faith--but others just seem to be trying to avoid examining their own faith by insulting our faithlessness.

I think that I am going to just take some time and read and think. It is important to me not to stop this journey and to keep asking questions and keep discussing...but it just gets tiring. It is so odd to be on the opposite side of where I proudly stood for all of my life up until now.

excited

Wow I have so much reading to do! A lot of books and articles have been recommended to me lately and I am honestly going to try to read them all. I am hopefully going to finish The God Delusion by the end of this week and then be able to move onto some other articles and books. So, thanks everyone for recommending stuff to me--I will try to get to it soon so we can talk more about these things. Or if you have good recommendations for more Christian/atheist books, please share here.

ironed jeans are the key to salvation

It kind of boggles my mind how so many christians work to live in luxury. Maybe it has to do with where I live--but at least around here, the church parking lots are filled with BMWs, Mercedes, Hummers, and women have dozens of new clothes and expensive purses. My old college pastor used to tell us that he thought all pastors should be rich because they deserved it for their work. My parents' church just also put down either $2 million or $6 million ( i cant remember) on a new state of the art 2 level parking structure... I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me in light of what the world really looks like...

Christians believe in "eternal paradise" so one would think that their time here on earth could be more freely spent in sacrifice--sacrificing expensive things so that they can give their money to the needy, sacrificing vanity and comfort so they can go to other parts of the world and help the poor/even be missionaries. Essentially living simple lives here and working hard for "God" should be easier if you believe you are guaranteed eternal bliss. I know that A LOT of christians do this, but most of those around me dont.

On the other hand, I have met dozens of international aid workers, war photographers, and other servants who don't believe in eternal life, yet still spend this life doing hard jobs and living very simply. One of my mentors in college was an atheist who spent 8 years living and working for peace in an African warzone (the war is over!).

I guess I am just in awe that people who profess to have eternal perfect lives anyway, would choose to chase perfection here as well. I am continually being shown just how "fair" salvation is.

from DC

Debunking Christianity: What if I’m wrong about Christianity?

good

I am loving this new series on the Discovery Channel called "Planet Earth."

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/planet-earth/planet-earth.html

the cave divers are SOOOOO cool

2(morality) - [1(ality) +e]

This is a continuation of my last post...

I am trying to think about what the implication of christians being "moral" is...if christians are moral, it doesnt say anything about the existence of God--just that the christians believe God is good and moral, so they emulate Him...but nowhere in that, can I come to believe that God exists just because his followers are good. Does their morality come from God being inside them and teaching them to be good? Or does the good come from Christians already knowing they should be good, and then they are good? Atheists who believe in secular moral philosophy are good too--but they dont have God.


I am really stuck on this concept of disjointed belief--my real faith lies in others' devotion and faith, not on an actual God. For instance, if I have faith that the Bible is true, I really just have faith that its authors knew what they were talking about and believed it is true...otherwise, how would I even know the story of the gospel? So in that to really have faith, we need to have faith in God, separate from the Bible--but then how can we even know about God and Jesus without the text? oral tradition? meditation? looking at nature? Looking at the ocean might make one think there is a creator--but then how can one deduce that that Creator sent his son to die and he rose on the third day, and there was a fallen angel who created Hell, and we are not supposed to lie and cheat and steal, and homosexuality is wrong, and we are to have a personal relationship and pray for everything and wait for the answers, and "give it all to God" and on and on? And most importantly, if we dont deduce that from creation, we are sent to a place of eternal burning and suffering?

I am just confused. Maybe my heart is hardened, maybe there is a block on my brain, maybe I am favoring "living in the dark instead of the Light" or something, but nonetheless, I am confused.

moral anyways

This is a totally underdeveloped thought (as are most of mine), but I was thinking about morality--and how morality would exist in an atheistic world, and I am thinking that morality wouldnt be that much different than in a christian--or rather, theistic present--world.

I would consider our world to be "theistic-present"--where there is a large percentage of humans who believe in some kind of God, and this God either demands morality, or embodies it--either way, there is morality derived from God (at least that is what Christians believe)...but anyway, in this theistic-present world, there are moral and immoral people. I guess for the purposes of this, I will just speak on Christianity because I am not confident enough in my knowledge of other religion's views on morality. If morality only really comes from Christians then,
---how/why do non-christians act morally? how/why do christians act immorally?
(I am not looking for the free-will answer) Are non-christians just inspired by christians? Are christians just tarnished by non-christians?

I think that in this theistic-present world, there are people who act "immorally" and "morally," but the lines are not drawn clearly between believers and unbelievers.

Just the same, I think that in an atheistic world, there would still be people acting morally and immorally. Moral actions at the core are still actions, and I think that people would not stop committing the moral actions just because they get to roam free and "sin." Some people do good, and some people do bad. I think that self-awareness plays a big part too--everyone knows the consequences of immoral acts (at least those that have consequences that can be sensed or described), but people respond differently. Maybe (person A) can beat up old ladies, and (person B) cant even kill a bug--but that doesnt mean that without a belief in God, (person B) would start beating up old ladies. I cant prove things like this, but I just think it is ridiculous to look at the world and expect morality to fail without christianity.

I also think that people's personalities and environments pre-dispose them to sin or immorality. I mean, for example the Christians that oppose abortion probably would still be against it even if they were not christians. Also, there are moral things that Christians don't do. For instance, not killing--even letting the State kill--is probably a moral thing...but christians let us go to war to protect ourselves(opposite of the symbolism of Christ's death) and execute criminals (cutting short their time to convert to christianity)...or look at the Federal budget. I protested with lefty Christians in 2005 against the omission of money for food stamps in the Federal Budget--(I presume that feeding the poor is a moral issue--mentioned in the Bible a few times I guess), yet my Christian parents supported the food stamp-less budget saying something about "abuse of the welfare system" or something. Or just look at our world. Could a lot of christians not sacrifice their nice cars and houses and great jobs to go and help the poor in other countries and feed the hungry? (especially since they have ETERNITY to live in luxury) I dont know. It just seems to me that the Christian "morality" is the easy morality. They are moral about what they would be moral about anyway...and they are immoral about things they dont want to give up and dont think God is worth(ahem, Ted Haggard, meth...ahem male prostitute)

why do christians get to be imperfectly moral, while non-christians have to be perfectly immoral?

i dont know. this is the most cluttered thought i have posted and the worst described. i am not trying to make an argument or hypothesis, just thinking.

new identity

This past week and weekend I made the decision to stop calling myself a Christian. I am not a Christian. I am a non-Christian. It is hard for me to say it because I am so fearful of Hell and Christianity has been my primary identity for my entire life, but that cannot make me believe. I do not believe in Jesus Christ's divinity and God in the way that Christianity offers. I am not saying that I never will or that I am stopping my search--just I have come to the point where I must be honest and truthful that I am not a believer. Maybe I will become one again soon, maybe later, maybe never.

I didn't document on this blog yet a lot of why I came to this conclusion. Maybe I will spend the next few days doing so, so that I can have a log of how it has happened.

I am still pursuing answers to my questions as fervently as I was before, but what has changed is that I am no longer doing it from a personal Christian perspective. This isn't big news really, but something happened to me this past week and I have been able to get real with how I really am.

It feels both freeing and frightening. I am suddenly so alone as most of the people in my life are Christians. And I know that this is going to put my family in ruins.